About That Jayce & Viktor Bridge Scene In Arcane…

And my heart breaks once again

Excerpts from Zak-Site

Chris of zak-site (http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/index.html) has basically written a whole dissertation on the early years of the Fantastic Four which is worth reading.

However for our purposes I will just be quoting his entries about Reed’s autism:

Issue 182: Reed’s autism - the evidence

[Image depicts two comic panels, on the left Sue Richards is crying and says “ Franklin– He’s been kidnapped!” On the right, the text box says “Reed Richards struggles to find the right words. What would his counterpart say? How would Susan Richard’s real husband react? So many questions, and by the time the answers are formulated– the game is up!” We see Reed facing away from Sue with a scowl, Sue looks at him with a similar expression and says “now I know you!”]

This issue gives perhaps more evidence that Reed may be autistic. Maybe it’s time to summarize the case:

Reed is highly intelligent, but only when he focuses on a narrow area. In other areas he seems less intelligent than his peers (see later examples)

In FF182 we see that he has difficulty with neuro-typical emotional responses. The parallel world Reed provides a useful experimental control for comparison with “our” Reed. As a parallel world Reed, we should assume he’s the same in every way unless stated. Notice what happens here: Sue tells him that Franklin has been kidnapped, and this Reed struggles to find the right thing to say. This is classic autistic behavior. Note that a small delay is normal: we should expect a second or so of shock. After that, any fake actor would know what to say. It’s not difficult to come up with a look of shock. But for this fake Reed it’s very difficult. He stands here struggling to think of the appropriate response. The Real Reed of course has had years of experience in Franklin getting hurt, so he would know what to say. This is why it’s so difficult to diagnose adults with autism: adults learn the right thing to say, even if they find it difficult. But this adult does not have a son, so he never learned, so it’s really hard for him to fake the emotion.

Reed is obsessively narrowly focused. He will happily spend days in his lab and even forget to eat. This goes beyond a normal obsession or interest.

Reed lacks social awareness. He does not see how his put downs affect the others emotionally. He genuinely cares for Ben, and cannot see how his criticisms (especially in acts 1 and 2) have driven Ben to depression. He loves Sue, and cannot see how his actions almost led to divorce. he cares for Johnny, but cannot see how Johnny feels so trapped.

Reed prefers solitude, and if he has to deal with others he wants to make all the decisions: his world seems to be filled with himself. (The word “autism” comes from the same root as “automatic” and comes from the prefix “auto” meaning “alone”.)

He avoids eye contact. We often see him, as in the sequence above, looking way from the person he’s talking to. FF51 is another classic example, when Sue stumbles on his secret work and he says “how did you find out?” without looking at her. In FF271 it’s a big deal that he can’t remember his mother’s eyes. Possibly she was he only person he would look in the eye. Of course, adults eventually learn what’s appropriate, so he will look into eyes when he remembers to, but it doesn’t come naturally.

He gets angry and frustrated or depressed when things don’t go his way. FF9 is a good example of this. This leads to his need to be in control. In FF184 he’s depressed that he cannot stretch, even though as Sue points out that is not his main power so rationally it doesn’t matter.

His speech patterns show he isn’t really aware of how he comes across; he’s very verbose even though others ask him not to be.

He takes things very literally. This is most clearly seen in John Byrne’s run where Reed is at his most socially withdrawn.

He is more paranoid than the others, seeing danger everywhere. Johnny has more fun, Ben is more relaxed about beating foes, and Sue likes to sometimes leave a danger alone (e.g. the first time they saw the creature from the black lagoon) but Reed is constantly on edge.

He doesn’t like to change routine, though his lifestyle forces him to. Franklin would interfere with his routine some he likes to send the boy away to Agatha Harkness, and won’t change that routine even when it’s obvious that Agatha’s house is not safe. Reed is also the only one who has never deliberately changed his uniform. Sue has tried skirts, Ben occasionally has an all over suit and even a helmet, and Johnny tried a red suit for a while, but Reed is happy with the same uniform every single time.

he seems to hate social complexity: how else do we explain why he did so well in FF181 in the negative zone? He was superb! Such a simple situation, just Reed on a rock against Annihilus. No powers, no other people, no stress. This shows that losing his powers is not the cause of his stress: it’s the fact that losing his powers makes his life complicated that he can’t cope with.

And so on and so on. None of this is proof of course, but the circumstantial evidence is very high.

Issue 200:

[Image description: Three panels depicting a struggle between Dr.Doom and Mr.Fantastic. Dialogue:

Reed: Don’t you realise you can never succeed? All your life you’ve been seeking vengeance on a world you believe has despised you…There’s still time, Doom–work with us! Your genius can benefit the very people you think hate you!

Doom: Insufferable idiot! You believe Doom is so petty that he seeks mere vengeance? Ignorant poltroon! I seek power because it is rightfully mine! It is a birthright I inherited from my mother–a woman who was murdered by a suspicious, frightened pack of cloddish morons who were too stupid to see the truth! I have ever sought to claim that with is already mine!

Doom freezes Reed in a block of ice

Doom: When we first met, Richards, I thought you a somewhat intelligent student with some promise. Perhaps your scientific intellect grew, but your understanding of human motivation is astonishingly limited! Vengeance? Bah! Doom is above such petty things ]

Reed’ doesn’t get it This issue contains possible evidence for Reed’s autism, in not appreciating Doom’s motivation. At the very least, it shows Doom’s depth. It is easy to pretend that Doom as a two dimensional villain who simply wishes power for its own sake, or who just wants revenge. No, such a shallow motivation is an insult. Doom simply wants what anyone wants: what he sees as justice. Reed’s remark about working with others to help mankind was especially naive: from Doom’s point of view everything he does is to help mankind: Doom sees himself as a superior ruler, able to bring the order and plenty that mankind needs. There is some logic to this, as we shall see in later issues when Zorba gains power. 

Reed’s diplomacy (or lack of it) Further evidence of Reed’s autism is the flashback: when Reed told Doom about the error in his calculation he was incredibly insensitive. Doom was trying to rescue his dead mother. He was breaking all the rules in the most dangerous way possible, all to save his mother. Imagine how Doom was feeling! Doom was not good at handling emotion at the best of times, and here he was on a knife edge, emotionally laid bare and vulnerable. All he asked of others was privacy. And Reed just burst in and said “you got the sums wrong.” Does Reed have no appreciation for feelings? Yes, Reed was right, but being right is not enough: you have to think of the other persons feelings. Knowing what Reed did about Doom, there is absolutely no way Doom could have accepted Reed’s advice. So why bother? Instead, Reed could have said something diplomatic, like “somebody may have tampered with your sums”, and give Doom a way to save face. Literally: because Doom, unable to “save face”, literally lost his face.

Great writing The passage on revenge is another example of this being The Great American Novel. What might appears to be a childish revenge story is in fact a discussion of justice and what is best for humanity. The fact that we can sympathize with Doom and share his frustration, even at the same time that we side with Reed, is a testament to the quality of the writing.

Source: http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff-act4-FF176.html

ARCANE LEAGUE OF LEGENDS: 2x09 - “The Dirt Under Your Nails.” ↳ “Why do you persist? After everything I've done?” “Because I promised you.”

Whats up with the Viktor and milk thing? I'm trying to find the origin but can't

UASHUASDH you mean his love for sweetmilk instead of like any meme me or any other person has made right?

If thats the case its in his color story, when a child breaks into his house and is kinda scared shitless of him he offers them some sweetmilk to calm them down and have a nice chat

[Here's a link to the story]

ok so just so you know, here are a few things that jayce did immediately upon having his journal returned to him:

make a reminder to ask viktor for his surname (also this ties to viktor being potentially related to some other major lore character)

draw viktor

quote viktor (multiple times)

mention viktor in every single one of his experiment annotations, including detailed description of what viktor did to help him

write down viktor’s opinion on almost everything concerning their experiments (which are apparently the most important part of jayce’s life, he values hextech even more than his position at the academy)

im just gonna leave all of it here without further comment, lmfao

Am I interrupting?

So apparently, Fortiche shared concept art where Jayce's Hexcorization in the cave would extend all the way to his face:

And this is really interesting to me from a narrative perspective, here's why:

Much of S2 Jayce's arc is incredibly... punitive. Like, he is really being punished step by step for everything he did wrong in S1. From Renni terrorizing and almost killing him for the death of her son, to Viktor leaving him "for another woman" (the Hexcore as represented by Sky) much like Jayce left him for politics as represented by Mel, there's really a sense of the narrative not only tearing Jayce down to his bare essentials (something that's very common for TV writing to do, by the way, it's very common that you want to see characters reduced down to who they are for their "long night of the soul" moment before they learn the lessons of what they really stand for before going into the climax armed with those lessons), but Jayce's time in the cave really goes even further than that and not only does S2 take away his political career, his Hextech ambitions, his state as someone able-bodied, much of his strength, and certain other gifts, it looks like in this draft they considered taking away his beauty too.

I think it would have been interesting either way if they had, but I want to dive into the narrative structure of action and punishment in Arcane, why Hexcorizing Jayce's face might have been a step too far and not really addressed a lesson he needed to learn, and my thoughts on punitive character arcs in general in Arcane (or lack thereof), specifically with regards to Jayce and Caitlyn.

I've mentioned elsewhere that I always found it interesting that much of the hate directed towards Jayce by the fans was for his perceived incompetence in difficult moments, rather than at how naturally gifted he seems to be at everything.

When I first watched S1 on my own, I thought Jayce was a bit unbearable because everything comes so easily to him (after Viktor becomes his partner and Hextech takes off as a result, that is). He is naturally beautiful, he's built like a god but doesn't appear to do any sort of exercise routine to maintain this other than working in the forge, he becomes the Man of Progress and rockstar of Piltover pretty much without trying, girls are literally sighing dreamily as he goes by.

He's also naturally a genius, from what we see, revolutionizing multiple industries with one invention. Even his rescue as a child is a literal miracle and it spurs him to create an invention that makes him a rockstar. When he enters politics, he immediately dominates, to the point where he's able to get a unanimous vote to overthrow the founder of the city within weeks of going there. Even in battle he's naturally gifted and naturally lucky during the raid of the Shimmer factory (up until the death of Renni's son), even though he has no prior skills as far as we know. He also wins the love of arguably the most beautiful woman in the series, again, seemingly without trying.

Then, S2 doesn't just take all of this away from him, it seems to go a step further into actually punishing Jayce for how easy and miraculous his life was in S1.

I'm of two minds about the Hexcorization reaching his face, but I have a hypothesis. I think it would have looked fucking rad but, I kinda get why they didn't do it:

Because Jayce's good looks are not something he can control, unlike the other things the narrative punishes him for.

Insofar as he can control his looks, he gives up on the clean-cut, immaculate "Golden Boy" image. Even in the idealized astral plane, he keeps most of the marks of his time in the pit like his hair and beard. I think it's because Jayce likes who he became down there. The clean-cut version of him was always the mask of him trying to please others, Jayce's appearance after he emerges from the cave is him shedding the opinions of others (contrast this with how Viktor idealizes himself in the astral plane, removing all marks of his illness. This isn't a criticism, just an interesting point of contrast).

So basically, my theory is Fortiche may have pulled back on Hexcorizing Jayce's face on the one hand to soften the visuals a bit, but secondly because it keeps the focus on punishing Jayce for things he chose to do, rather than things he doesn't really have control over.

But make no mistake, the narrative comes down hard on Jayce in S2, for every little thing the fans could and often did hate him for in S1. He pays for all of them, arguably in excess of what he maybe deserved, since as he says he didn't ask for any of this. But he did go along with it, and there's where the hammer of consequence (quite literally) comes down on him, tears away all his privileges, drags him down to literally the level of Viktor when he first left the undercity and says, "You have to do it all again but now focused on what really matters, and it's going to be ten times harder than it ever was."

This, in my opinion, is why Jayce is so popular coming out of S2. It is a hell of an arc, it's a hell of a redemption! You gave the man everything any man could want, then you took it all away, and then as his crowning moment of showing he has truly learned these lessons and made up for his mistakes, he makes possibly the most loving gesture possible, puts his weapons down, and reaches out to the person he loves most and literally sacrifices himself on the altar of his mistakes to make things right and show Viktor he is loved, and to protect Viktor from the horrifically lonely fate of his future self. It doesn't get any more noble, loving, or self-sacrificing than that.

Because more than we like to see a character punished we like to see them learn from their mistakes and come back better. Jayce's S2 nobility is earned, perhaps even to excess, no one can question whether he suffered enough to make up for what he did in S1 but even the most uncharitable read of him in S1, his biggest hater, would have to agree his time spent starving to death in agony, alone in that cave for months, has got to be just about the worst punishment a human can face and live.

Which is one reason I must add that I find it a little puzzling that Arcane's creators didn't predict the hate that Caitlyn would get in S2.

Keep in mind, because this is very important, the Arcane creators did not make S2 in response to fan reactions to S1. S2 was already in production and the script was locked in and done before anyone outside their organizations saw S1. So nothing that happens in S2 is as a result of fan response.

But, the creators did understand that Jayce was going to need to suffer narrative punishment for what he did in S1 in order to be redeemed, whether they predicted how hated he would be after S1, they did predict that redemption would be necessary. And boy-howdy, did they give him a hell of a redemption arc!

But Caitlyn's S2 actions are almost in lock-step similar to Jayce's S1 actions, being manipulated (by a Medarda!) into accepting power, but maybe not having a choice in the matter, but still maybe expanding that power on their own because it is useful in its own right. Caitlyn also makes terrible mistakes. A child doesn't die but people in the undercity do get hurt during her rage-fuled raids, even if most of them are mob bosses and their goons. The narrative asks, does that make it right? Caitlyn like Jayce hurts the person closest to her who is from the undercity and uses bigoted language against the people of the undercity to Vi's face in much the same way that Jayce did to Viktor on the bridge, though in Jayce's defense, he apologized immediately after.

So, seeing how hated Jayce was coming out of S1, to the point where there's still barely any merchandise of him, I'm shaking my head rather ruefully that there was so much merch made for Caitlyn this time around. And I get it! Caitlyn and Vi were very popular after S1, they are intentionally THE main romance of the show and it was a very popular romance coming out of the innocence of their meet cute in S1.

But it's a romance that dearly needed a longer third act if you wanted Caitlyn to be as embraced after her mistakes as Jayce was after making up for his all through S2. You need to give her as long or at least as in-depth of a redemption act with as much suffering and acknowledgment of her mistakes if you want Vi and Caitlyn at the end to get celebrated the way Jayce making it up to Viktor is, because as much as I understand the choice to focus on pacing instead of exposition, and I do think Caitlyn's apology and realization of her mistakes are there on the page more than people complain, I do also agree that it is a bit "blink and you'll miss it" even if it's there. Jayce got a whole episode of being thrown into the Torment Nexus for his mistakes, real or imagined, if you didn't like him or his choices, you definitely got the sadistic glee of watching life kick the stuffing out of him for what he did in S1.

But besides her fight with Ambessa, which was a result of a confluence of many events in the story, not just Caitlyn's mistakes, Caitlyn doesn't really suffer much for the mistakes she made to those she loves. Her losing an eye to Ambessa didn't happen because she said bigoted things to Vi or became a short-term puppet dictator of Piltover. It was a result of Ambessa's actions and maneuvering more than it was a result of Caitlyn's personal mistakes to her loved ones.

In contrast, Jayce's time in the pit gave him the chance to reflect on and suffer for the the mistakes he made that led to the Anomaly that led to him being down in this pit, and what he would do to make it up to his loved ones like Viktor when he returned. Caitlyn never got a moment like that and from what I'm seeing of the vitriol directed towards her, so similar to what Jayce got after S1, it seems like she really needed it if we were going to like her to the same extent again, in a way uncomplicated by lingering questions about whether she ever truly learned the lessons her character needed to learn to grow as a person.

And it's just funny to me that a narrative that was so aware that this whole huge punishment arc was needed to rehabilitate Jayce wasn't aware that we'd need one for Caitlyn too, at least if they're going to move all that merch they made for her (please give us Jayce merch, Riot, I'm begging).

...only you.

Parallels between Jayvik and the Phantom of the Opera

I can't believe I haven't seen any discussion yet around the musical theater influences in Arcane S2 so far (besides my one mention of its parallels with Les Miserables).

So as a basic, Phantom of the Opera-loving bitch, can we please take a moment to examine the Phantom of the Opera parallels that are literally shoved in our faces during this opening sequence and what that means for Jayvik?

Viktor is the Phantom. The show opening outright says it. The parallels are there. They're impossible to miss.

And then, when you dig a little deeper, hooo boy those parallels become even more stark. Especially if you read Viktor as romantically pining after Jayce, which 99.9999% of humanity does.

To quickly summarize, Phantom of the Opera is the story of a deformed genius who falls in love with an opera singer, Christine, and then nurtures her talents, only for her to in turn fall in love with a nobleman, Raoul. The ensuing love triangle is the heart of the plot, with Raoul and the Phantom both vying for Christine's love.

This shouldn't be a hard one to see the parallels for.

Viktor = The Phantom. Literally a genius born with a disfigurement, in this case a disability he sees as a weakness and a disease that is sapping away his life and hope of a legacy. He is riddled with jealousy for the person trying to pull his scientific/musical partner away from him, a person who happens to be beautiful and live a life of privilege that Raoul/Mel could offer to Jayce/Christine instead.

Jayce = Christine. Instead of sharing genius in music, he and Viktor share genius in science. Like Christine, he is tugged between the glittering world of politics and privilege, vs his genius and love at a more esoteric skill, in this case science instead of music.

Mel = Raoul. Literally an aristocrat who is far more beautiful than the Phantom/Viktor, who steals away his partner's attention and offers them a glittering life of privilege in the public eye instead of the wonders of their joint musical/scientific pursuits. Whether or not Mel meant to embody this, or steal Jayce from Viktor, this is the role she fulfills in Viktor's view of the world.

But the most profound moment for me of, "Oh wow, they're doing Phantom of the Opera! Actually, they're not just doing Phantom, they're doing Phantom fixit fic?!" was this:

Which, if you'll forgive the potato quality of the screenshots, is literally the moment Viktor has his mask knocked away and then cringes in on himself to hide his exposed face from Jayce.

Which... is literally a scene in Phantom of the Opera? Just after "Music of the Night"?

But we're already in Phantom fixit territory, because Jayce doesn't recoil like Viktor expects! Instead, he embraces Viktor and loves him for all his self-perceived flaws.

And then, AND THEN, in a moment that made my Phantom-loving heart sing, Viktor tells Jayce to go!

And Jayce doesn't.

In the final song of the Phantom of the Opera musical, Christine is forced to choose between Raoul and the Phantom. She chooses the Phantom and kisses him. Flooded by remorse, the Phantom then relinquishes her to the man he knows she truly loves, and when Christine hesitates to leave, he shouts at her, "Go!" and then, of course, she and Raoul leave together.

Viktor is expecting that to happen! I think his order to Jayce very clearly implies that he thinks Mel and Jayce are still together. It's the classic, "Go be with the woman you love instead of staying here and dying with me," trope that we see over and over again in dramas.

But Jayce. Defies. The Trope.

Unlike Christine and just about every buddy war movie out there, he stays with Viktor. He chooses his scientific/artistic partner over the life of aristocracy and privilege that Mel would theoretically offer him. He chooses the masked genius with the disability and calls him perfect. He refuses to go when he is ordered to leave. He stays with Viktor until the end.

And I still can't believe that no one else is talking about this!

i got possessed by the arcane finale and had to draw all the victor and jayce scenes in a single tarot card thing, ill draw a proper cleaned up version at some point but i had to get a messy idea down

also yes its very inspired by this from season one :)