!

Новая еда 🍴🍱

МакЛеннонс в психоанализе — что об этом думает deepseek

Англоязычные sorry

Hi. I remember reading a quote by Stuart's sister about some sort of love triangle between John, Stuart and Paul, or something like that. I know she said something about them, but I can't find the source 😓

She didn't really frame it as a love triangle, but she did imply that Paul's intense jealousy of Stu might have been because he suspected there was something going on between John and Stu:

"I have known in my heart for many years that Stuart and John had a sexual relationship but to protect my mother I kept my counsel about it although everything I knew, personally and professionally, pointed towards it. And, with hindsight, it was a lovely happening: two lost boys who needed and found each other. [...] I’ve wondered many times over the years if that’s what some of the antagonism between Stuart and Paul might have been about, whether Paul suspected something [between John and Stu]. None of us directly connected to the Beatles have publicly acknowledged that John had less than conventional sexual attachments." —Pauline Stutcliffe (The Beatles' Shadow: Stuart Sutcliffe & His Lonely Hearts Club)

it’s because i wear four rings

Lovely words about Brian Wilson from Paul 💞

do you think yoko loved john when he died? do you think when she says she misses him or says she gets choked up hearing his voice still sometimes that it is genuine or just what she has to say and do as his widow(tm) (not necessarily maliciously but she is very brand and image obsessed.) she seems very cold and stoic so i cannot tell if any emotion on him is genuine or something she forces out to fit that narrative. i guess i just get sad because you can really feel the love when olivia talks about george for example, but with yoko im always wondering if it's just her saying what she thinks people want to hear. he has been dead longer than he was even alive so im not saying she has to be grieving still or anything but i do hate that i feel like i cannot trust anything she says because she says everything so emotionlessly.

Hello anon.

I wasn't going to discuss this but couldn't pass the opportunity of addressing some issues that have been bothering me. People act like I go out of my way to start discourse but it's not my fault I get questions like this. Sure, I could ignore the message but I don't see any reason to hold back.

(I'm not going to put this under a cut, you scroll it down, your finger won't fall off, I promise.)

You've worded your point respectfully and I can tell you don't mean any harm but I need to touch on some of those bizarre stereotypes and misconceptions.

For starters, WHY do tumblrinas think it's not only ok but cool dismissing John and Yoko's marriage as Not Valid™ and questioning the extent of their love?

Oh wait, I know the answer. It's because acknowledging Yoko (or Stu or Brian) goes against their cosmic soulmate McLennon dreams.

Yoko was John's wife, mother of his child, creative partner and manager. One might love or hate her but she exists. Show some basic respect.

It's fine to discuss the JohnandYoko brand, their publicity stunts and manipulation of the media but what I often see is people using that as an excuse to further their shipping preferences.

To be honest, if they were as straightforward as your average boyband fan I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. I might even get amused. It's the self righteousness and "correcting the record" bullshit I can do without.

Contrary to popular belief, it's unlikely John and Yoko were total sociopaths pretending to be in love. I know it might come across as a shock but sometimes people just like each other! It's irrelevant whether they bonded for the "wrong" reasons or even if their dynamics was healthy. It's not up for the public to decide what is acceptable between two consenting people. It might seem toxic, insane or plain abusive to you but sometimes people get a kick out of being miserable together. That's nobody's business.

Maybe if they had circulated more footage of them and their blonde children in the tour bus their choices would've been taken more seriously, who knows.

Now straight to your question: did Yoko love John by the time he died? It's hard to say. Depending on who you ask you'll get very different perspectives. But it doesn't matter. Regardless of the motivations, there was a mutual agreement between this couple and it seemed to be working in their terms. It doesn't have to make sense to the rest of us.

In my opinion, she did love John. For all his serious flaws, he wasn't that hard to love. I doubt Yoko was enough of a Bond villain to be indifferent to a man who was cherished by millions for his humor, brilliance and sex appeal. Which is not to say there wasn't envy, resentment and possessiveness on her part. All of these things can coexist.

It's not out of line wondering whether Yoko's public grief has performative elements. It does. But keep in mind that after December 8, 1980 she wasn't speaking just as a wife or manager anymore but as the beneficiary of John's will. She had a product to sell. Of course she'd promote herself and say things people want to hear sometimes.

Which brings us to Paul McCartney. I wasn't going to drag him into this but since everybody assumes he was the reason John existed (and in total equality with his wife), I don't see why not. Why doesn't anybody ever question HIS intentions?

Do you really believe he's not aware of the cultural obsession with Lennon/McCartney and doesn't use it for his own purposes as well? He cherry picks stories and plays for the audience all the time. But it's considered almost sacrilegious suggesting this might be the case.

Now it's totally fine implying he was just as affected by tragedy as the woman who watched her husband getting shot four times right next to her, when they were returning home to have dinner with their kid.

What THE FUCK is wrong with you people?

Fans project a lot of strange things onto this woman. They'll excuse every thing John and Paul ever did because Dead Mothers™ but Yoko being stoic because she grew up in the middle of Japan's WWII's bombings and almost starved to death is not even considered. She didn't come from background where what we consider appropriate displays of affection were common. Yoko might've been a bad influence on John in many aspects but she was as messed up as him, not a Blofeld mastermind attracting a lamb to slaughter. He walked into the "trap" because he saw something he liked and could relate to.

I'm not above contradictions, I have made some of these mistakes myself. After more careful research over the years and reading some of the most ridiculous takes one could imagine, my opinion on the subject has evolved a lot. I still find most of her business decisions questionable and I'm just as annoyed by her occasional attention seeking behavior. But I always had respect for her as an artistic partner to John. I genuinely enjoy their work together and never hid my opinion that he made his most interesting music after she came into the scene.

Does that make me a JohnandYoko stan? No, because I'm not a fucking weirdo. I look up to people for inspiration but I don't live vicariously through their relationships. I don't need JohnandPaul or JohnandYoko or PaulandLinda to be the fairytale of the century in order to believe in love nor I want a celebrity couple to be my parents.

And before anyone accuses me of shaming people, I wanna say that all your crazy ideas are perfectly acceptable on a fan fiction level. Direct all this creativity to entertaining your fellow fans instead of annoying them with rancid takes. We're starved for content!

(yeah that also includes myself, i'm trying! When I finish my fics it will be all over for the rest of you.)

Stuart was going to stay in Hamburg, cos he’d fallen in love with this girl Astrid [Kirchherr], who was part of a little set who called themselves the Exi’s, existentialists. They were very cool in black, tight trousers, little high-heeled boots. She was blonde, she had a short Peter Pan pageboy haircut, she looked dead cool. We’d never seen a chick like it. She dressed like a boy, a very slim little boy, so it was all, Fuckin’ hell, look at her!  I think we all fancied her but she fancied Stuart, who’d been the one guy who’d never been able to pull anything in our band. We’d always pulled before old Stu, but he got these great shades and struck a James Dean pose, got his hair going groovy like James Dean, so she went mad for him. And their group used to really like Stuart. I think it went: Stuart, John, George, me, Pete Best. That was their order of preference. They took some great photos of us. 

- Paul McCartney interview in Paul Du Noyer, Conversations with McCartney (2015) pp.34-35

ARIES RISING

JOHN LENNON

I think some of you are projecting onto John when you say he was deeply obsessed with Paul. It seems like you're the ones obsessed with Paul, and you're projecting those feelings onto John. Yes, John admired Paul, but you all act as if John spent his entire life obsessing over him. I don't think that's the case.

Paul and john :3

I wanted to try out dif color combos

Did Paul and Robert have an affair or was that just Tara Browne

there is no hard, tangible evidence that paul had an affair with robert fraser or an affair with tara browne – or any man at all, for that matter. 

i do, however, think that robert and paul did share a special connection. over anything else we can speculate, but this, to me, is fact. i will delve deeper into why i think it was special and what exactly i mean by that in a different post, but i think these quotes illustrate a bit:

Robert represented to me freedom, freedom of speech, of view. [x]

Paul visited Robert’s gallery and would often drop by his flat to see who was there and what was happening. Robert was a superb host; he always mixed the latest drinks, had the best drugs, and a room full of interesting people.Through Robert, Paul entered the world of art; he met Andy Warhol, Claes Oldenburg, Peter Blake and Richard Hamilton and, in the course of listening to their conversations, he learned a great deal about art appreciation.Paul: ‘The most formative influence for me was Robert Fraser. Obviously the other Beatles were very important but the most formative art influence was Robert. I expect people to die so I don’t feel a loss but there’s a vacuum where he used to be.’ [x]

Actually I remember one of the most touching conversations we had was about his mum and dad. I said, ‘My mum died when I was young but I think my dad’s great. He’s a real fine man and I’ve got a lot of respect for him and I’m not ashamed to admit it.’ Feeling slight peer pressure as I did admit it. And he said, ‘Well uh uh uhg. I feel the same way about my mother. I love my parents!’ and we had a little moment where we both admitted we loved our parents, which then was not the kind of thing you did. I don’t think I ever had it with the Beatles, it certainly was not a common thing. [x]

Paul saw a lot of Robert during 1966 and in the period leading up to the release of Sgt. Pepper in 1967.PAUL: The way Robert lived, which became the way I lived for a couple of years and which I now figure for a rather aristocratic way of life, would be that he’d ring early in the day and say, ‘What are we doing for dinner tonight?’ It all hinged round dinner. Once he’d had dinner fixed, then he could fill in the rest of the day. It all worked around the event. Robert generally liked to eat down Chelsea: King’s Road, Fulham Road area. The San Lorenzo, the Trattoria.As well as dinner or hanging out at Mount Street, Paul would often put in an appearance at the gallery. ‘Once I got to know Robert, a nice thing would be going to the gallery and helping install an exhibition. Just sit around and smoke a bit of pot while somebody else was installing the exhibition. Helping. Play a little music for him.’  [x]

In my garden at Cavendish Avenue, which was a 100-year-old house I’d bought, Robert was a frequent visitor.One day he got a hold of a Magritte he thought I’d love. Being Robert, he would just get it and bring it.  I was out in the garden with some friends. I think I was filming Mary Hopkin with a film crew, just getting her to sing live in the garden, with bees and flies buzzing around, high summer. We were in the long grass, very beautiful, very country-like. We were out in the garden and Robert didn’t want to interrupt so when we went back in the big door from the garden to the living room, there on the table he’d just propped up this little Magritte. It was of a green apple. That became the basis of the Apple logo. Across the painting Magritte had written in that beautiful handwriting of his ‘Au Revoir’. And Robert had split.I thought that was the coolest thing anyone’s ever done with me. When I saw it, I just thought: ‘Robert.’ Nobody else could have done that. [x]  

So, some time early in 1966, Paul and Robert flew to Paris. They checked into the Plaza Athenee on the Avenue Montaigne in the heart of haute-couture Paris, one of the most fashionable and snobbish hotels in France. Going on a trip with Robert caused a few comments from Paul’s friends. PAUL: “Because he was gay, it raised a few small-minded eyebrows and funnily enough, one or two of them were from within the Beatles: ‘Hey, man, he’s gay, what you going off to Paris with him for? They’re gonna talk, you know. Tongues are going to wag.’ I said, ‘I know tongues are going to wag, but tough shit.’” [x]

There were many good times in Robert’s flat. Through my Beatle connections I’d hire a 16mm projector for the evening […] and I started off with Wizard of Oz.Robert got into this, wow, and he’d get some art movies. We got a lot of Bruce Connors, showed a lot of that. It was a very exciting period. [x]

Robert’s flat was like a second gallery. He had a lot of Dubuffet around that he was trying to sell. I wasn’t too interested in him. He had a lot of stuff by Paolozzi, and I bought a big chrome sculpture which was called Solo, which was in the big Pop Art exhibition they had about two years ago at the Tate. I just said, ‘What is that, Robert?’ Fantastic. He said, ‘What is it? I don’t know. It’s a mantelpiece, a bit of a car, who knows?’I was very happy with that attitude, not too academic. There was no dour art talk. It was much more razzy, loose, lively discussion with him. [x]

They [Paul and Robert] happened to come to the studio one night and were just on a trip, you know, they were seeing things that weren’t there–seeing colours and seeing things that simply weren’t there. [x]

Robert could play the academic game quite easily, he was very knowledgeable, but I think he found it a bit boring. It wasn’t our scene, being academic. I’ve heard him hold his own with academics, but that wasn’t the buzz. The buzz was more of a mixture, a cross-over with musicians, etc.He turned me on to quite a few things, quite a few artists. We went down once on an impulse to see Takis, the great sculptor who did things with tank aerials with little lights on the end. That sort of thing was great.We’d just turn up at someone’s studio, smoke a bit of pot, sit around and just chat art. [x]

i have a lot more quotes in my tag, if you are interested and want to form your own picture of their relationship.

to me, if we see john as paul’s connection to music, robert was his connection to art.