Oh! Apparently Transandrophobes Are Now Being Very Mask Off With The Fact That They Are The Same Community

With this latest round of discourse being "trans men shouldn't complain about being kicked out of women's spaces", I felt the urge to write up a relatively long post regarding the topic, as I feel it is a long tangled mess and involves a significant amount of people simply talking past each other.

To begin, what is a woman's space? I ask this, because "women's spaces" often fall under one of three categories: medical services, social services, and social gatherings. Of the three, trans men need access to nearly everything if not everything included within "medical services" and "social services". These things often need to be considered co-ed anyway, but are still considered "for women" and often are labeled things like "women's health" or "women's defense". Social gatherings- things such as book clubs, concerts, festivals, and other similar outings- can have a nuanced and complicated history when it comes to the inclusion, or exclusion, of trans men.

As an example- I am a binary, gay trans man who has not yet been sterilized. If I become pregnant and need to seek out social services, I must do so via my provider's "Women and Babies" department. I am neither of those things, and yet regardless of whether I am completing or terminating the pregnancy, I must label myself a woman in order to receive care. If I wish to have a pap smear, receive birth control, or investigate my chances of ovarian and cervical cancer, I must do so via the "Women's Health Clinic". I am not a woman, but I must label myself as one in order to discuss sterilization options. Many trans men who have had their gender markers changed prior to sterilization have reported difficulty even booking an appointment, as well as difficulty convincing their insurance to pay for this appointment due to a discrepancy with gender markers vs gendered care. Many have discussed the realities of being a pregnant man, whether they remained pregnant until their child was born, or whether they terminated said pregnancy with an abortion.

It should come as no surprise that the statistics for trans men receiving quality gynecological care are abysmal. It should be equally unsurprising to hear how many trans men have died from botched abortions, untreated miscarriages, infections and cancers of the uterus and cervix and ovaries, and complications during pregnancy or birth. We belong in this space, despite it being labeled "for women", and the only thing pushing us out has done is quite literally what's been killing us.

This is, of course, not even taking into account the numbers of trans men who have been forced to become pregnant via their husbands or families as a means to detransition them, and those who have become pregnant as a result of corrective rape. There is a saying among trans men of my age- it isn't "we all know a guy this has happened to", it's "which of us haven't experienced this? who among us doesn't fear this? who will it happen to next?"

Which brings me to my next point: women's social services. As with women's medical care, nearly everything labeled "for women" as a social service must be inclusive to trans men. Shelters for domestic violence survivors, rape crisis centers, self defense classes, family planning, these are all things that honestly should already be co-ed. But, many times, they are exclusively targeted towards women. I understand why, I do. But with trans men being statistically more likely than cis women to experience the need for these services, it seems a cruelty to close their doors to a vulnerable demographic reaching out for help.

Where should trans men in crisis go? Shutting the door to us without addressing the reason we need to access these resources gives us a single ultimatum: detransition, or die. Go back to being a woman, or die knowing the likelihood that a woman's name will adorn your headstone, and "daughter, wife, mother" will be said in your obituary. Much like the medical services, this incomplete answer has lead many trans men to their deaths. Whether by their own hands, or by their attackers'.

But there are other social services out there that perhaps are not as dire. Women's scholarships, colleges, all girls schools. Girl Scouts, women's sport leagues, gym memberships. Trans men don't need access to these, right?

Well... is the trans man in question out? Has he been living as a man, or is he still closeted? Is it safe for him to come out? Does he pass, or has he just bought his first binder and given himself his first buzz cut? Is he living under the control of his parents, or is he able to freely decide for himself the type of person he'd like to be and the type of life he'd like to live?

You see, I was a Girl Scout once. And, if we are to believe to our core that trans men are men even before they know the words "transgender", this means I was a boy in a girl's space. I didn't know that being transgender was an option for me at the point where my troop disbanded, and another leader to replace the first within my local area was not found until after I had aged out.

But also... I was in 7th grade when my troop disbanded. Two years later, I would learn the word "transgender", and suddenly everything would make sense. Two years later, I would come out to my parents and my sisters. To put this into perspective, I graduated high school in 2010. The Boy Scouts officially allowed cisgender girls and transgender people of all genders to join all programs in 2019.

I was not expelled from my Girl Scout troop. My leader simply stopped showing up to meetings, and my troop disbanded to go our separate ways when leadership could not find someone quickly enough to replace her. But... if this had not happened, I would have been a recently out transgender boy in a girl's social service, still wearing push up bras and frilly shirts because that's all my parents would buy me until I became an adult and moved out and had a job with my own money to re-purchase myself a wardrobe. Indistinguishable from any of the others, outside of what went on inside my own mind.

I would not have been accepted into the Boy Scouts, if Girl Scouts had been taken from me as abruptly as it was from a different transgender boy in the same state I was born and raised. Which would have left me with... nothing. Neither. And the only reason I even joined the Girl Scouts was because I had wanted to join the Boy Scouts and the local troop had refused to allow me, because they had labeled me a girl.

I don't believe I'm the one that coined Schrodinger's Gender, but I do reference it often. In this situation, one is both a boy when it hurts, and a girl when it hurts. Even if that gender label changes by the second, the point is to use your gender and your assigned sex to hurt you.

But then, why do these services even have to be gendered to begin with? After all, Boy Scouts just updated to be The Scouts, and has removed (on paper) the insistence on gendering.

Well... I certainly agree that the majority of gendering these services is at this point a concept that needs to be reformed, but I'm unconvinced that we will be able to completely integrate without addressing the reason they were segregated by gender in the first place.

Women's gym memberships are gender segregated for two reasons. Women and girls- and anyone labeled as women and girls, regardless of true identity- are frequently not afforded the same access to resources as cisgender men and boys. Women and girls- and anyone labeled such- are frequently at high risk of predatory sexual behavior and physical violence. Both of these problems are symptoms of a larger system of misogyny at play, and both of these problems directly affect trans men especially those who have not transitioned in a way that makes them pass for cis men.

Regardless of the truth of my identity, the reality is that I was seen as and treated as a girl when it came to physical fitness, and thus barred from the same activities freely offered to the boys. Regardless of the truth of my identity, I have experienced predatory sexual behavior from cis men as young as 8 or 9 years old, continuing past when I came out and began to transition socially.

If the problem is not addressed, cis women cannot re-integrate with cis men. But, additionally, if the problem is not addressed, the choice still remains clear for trans men. Detransition, stay closeted, or go without.

A common complaint of trans men is the invisibility and erasure our demographic faces. It should be easy to see why this happens. The problem of a misogynistic society is one that continues to this day, and without addressing the problem we cannot hope for success in creating a more inclusive space. At the same time, trans men are being pushed out and isolated as they realize they must make a choice.

As for social gatherings, such as a woman's retreat or a woman's music festival? Of course, it may sound odd to say that a trans man should feel welcome there. But the truth of the matter is the majority of the trans men asking for the ability to stay are trans men who have been within that space for years already, prior to coming out, prior to realizing some things about their genders, prior to taking their first steps as men.

I'm pretty good friends with an older butch who told me that I am the first person they ever told that they were a nonbinary man. This person is in their 50s. They're married. But the wife doesn't like it, and they love their wife too much to cause friction in the relationship, so they keep it to themselves, and they keep quiet, and they don't say anything about being transgender, but in their head they aren't a woman. This person is not a woman, by their own insistence. Should this person be forcibly ejected from their local lesbian community, which they and the wife helped form decades ago? Should they divorce their wife, since that would make her not a lesbian anymore?

What harm is it, truly, to allow this person to stay? Social isolation kills people. The trans man suicide statistics are just as abysmal as any of the others I've mentioned here. Forcing someone to burn 20, 30, 40 years of their lives and their friends and their achievements because they are finally living as themselves is a deeply hurtful and isolating experience.

The majority of trans men asking to be included in these spaces are not trans men like me- who never really jived with the idea of womanhood and distanced ourselves as much as possible the moment we saw the opportunity. They are men like my friend, often existing outside of the binary, often with a deep love and appreciation for womanhood despite realizing that perhaps the label does not fit them as well as they once thought. They often have many years of connection, entire lives spent intwined in these spaces.

What good does it do to chase them out? What harm does it to do let them stay?

whenever i hear about wether transandrophobia is real or not (it is) or any of that sort of discourse i think about the time i was at a local queer support group and we were talking about past experiences in our community and other queer people we may have known and weren’t around anymore. i mentioned a trans boy i used to know back when i lived in iraq, who was honor killed due to his parents finding out about him being a man. i remember some of the others in the group were shocked because they either didn’t know that honor killings were still a thing or, in some cases, some of them were shocked the honor killing would happen to a trans man. they thought that, since masculinity is “so praised” in the middle east (it is but not in the way they think), then parents wouldn’t kill their trans son.

Damn. That's horrible and I'm sorry that's something that happened to you. It just goes to show how just the "being a man" part of being a trans man doesn't make you exempt from bigotry, discrimination and oppression, especially if you're bipoc.

*gripping my hands so hard on a young trans persons shoulders that their bones are about to break*

do not log on to 4chan.com. do not get involved in passing olympics. you will always lose. do not put afab/amab/tma/tme, that is cisgender society trying to know your “real” gender. you do not exist to please cisgender people. there is no ‘right’ way to be trans. learn your goddamn history, listen to your elders. listen to other disenfranchised groups. listen to intersex people and check yourself for intersexism. listen to trans poc and check yourself for racism. listen to disabled people and check yourself for ableism. be open to learning always. labels are meant to fit you, not the other way around. you are not weird or predatory for simply being attracted to others. you’re fine if you’re not a skinny white twink or a barbie doll. you’re fine if your body is ‘weird’. you’re fine if you don’t have heavy or any dysphoria. it’s okay if you actually don’t want to transition or anything like that. life is worth living at any stage, you deserve to be happy. I SWEAR THAT YOU ARE OKAY!!!!!

whole lotta talk about transfems being transandrophobic and not enough talk about transmascs being transandrophobic. its just as bad and definitely something that happens in irl spaces

since someone wanted to be a clown and make a "transmisogyny" bingo board, i made my own transandrophobia bingo board

This clown's takes are so "funny". No, you idiot, hating your brothers isn't enough to make them pick you, and you should go to hell foe trying in the first place. Get a fucking grip

Transmisandry isn’t a thing because misandry isn’t a thing. You don’t get a special little pass because you’re trans. That’s an entirely different type of oppression

[Clem. She/her]

I love how I can say "hey, you weren't accused of rape because you are a trans woman. you were accused of that because of your provable actions. This isn't like a common transphobic thing that happens to people. Beiing accused of shit is serious and if you downplay it or act like it's some sort of sillh thing that happens to you because #trans women things, I'm going to assume you actually did do that and think your identity can help save you from accountability."

and then get an ask about "internalized transmisogyny"

Like no, hun, you don't go around complaining about how the evil AFABs keep accusing you of sexual abuse and acting all melanie martinez about it and then expect people to take you seriously.

Tell any queer IRL that you think trans dudes get out of T4T relationships and accuse trans women of rape and sexual abuse for 'no reason' and that you see it as a "rite of passage" and get back to me. This is not a common thing. At all. If you are out here boasting you got called out for being abusive, fuck off.

Like I said, don't do abusive shit and your chances of being accused go down to almost 0. And also, innocent people don't make a point to bring up their identity anf victimize themselves every two seconds to downplay the severity of rape and accusations of it. Just sayin'.

It's not transmisogyny to say this is not at all an experience that happens in the wider trans community.

However, it is of note to say a lot of the "men are so evil🥺🥺" crowd of the trans community is often accused of abuse with mountains of evidence, and hyped up that OG post.

Weird, almost like the people who have harmful ideas about a group of people are harmful (abusive) to them in relationships.. but nooo women are too soft and pure to ever do wrong.

Uneles, of course, they don't agree with you.

remember. when faced with the rise of fascism it is always the most important thing to start vitriolic and divisive online discourse about who is more oppressed

okay. so. this is clearly a terf post because no one can be this dense about transandrophobia without swallowing the terf pill, but in case anyone is actually thinking like this.

trans men are not trying to suggest that trans women are oppressing us. why is it that when we talk about a cisgendered society oppressing us, you assume we’re talking about trans women?? trans men talking about how a cisnormative and patriarchal society affects us has absolutely nothing to do with trans women, except to acknowledge that we’re all in the same boat and therefore need to stick together underneath hostile threats towards our community.

no we did not think transitioning would make the “gender prison” magically disappear, and that line of thinking blatantly shows that you subscribe to the terf idea that trans men only transition to “escape” womanhood, while believing that trans women are the only “real” trans people who transition because they have no other choice (huh… where have i heard discourse about what makes someone a “real” [insert marginalised group of people] before?)

trans people and their identities are not a political stance or commentary on gender. a trans man existing is not because they believe they magically have male privilege now or because they think men are better than women. male privilege and the patriarchy were designed by white, cis men for white, cis men. we do not have access to male privilege in the ways that cis men do, and we are accutely aware of this. none of us are whining about not gaining male privilege, because we’re reminded every single day every time our autonomy is violently stripped away from us that male privilege does not and will not include us.

this all also comes down to the problem of trans men being erased from history by historians treating us as “women who dressed up as men to escape the patriarchy” as opposed to actual trans people who existed alongside other trans people. because of this, there’s a subconscious idea that trans men and mascs are a recent phenomenon, almost like a subset of trans people that branched out from trans women, as opposed to being trans people in their own right. when we talk about our experiences and oppression, we’re met with this idea that everything we’re talking about is stuff that already exists for other people and we’re just co-opting it, as opposed to oppression we’ve historically been facing for as long as anyone else, but our erasure means that terms for these experiences do not get spread around nearly as much.

“transandrophobia” may be considered to be a new term, but the actual oppressions that trans men face on the basis of being trans men is not new. we’re just finally talking about it. and if you would actually read through the tag that you’re infiltrating and what trans men are actually saying, you’d learn what those oppressions are. the type of misogyny we face comes from the idea that we’re “defected” women and need to be “fixed”, and it’s the type of misogyny we experience from women, particularly white, cis women, who view Eurocentric ideas of womanhood and femininity as the ideal or men who want our bodies “restored” back into baby machines. our forced detransitioning and sterilisation is an extremely serious issue that deserves to be talked about, especially since forceful detransitioning is practically a death sentence for many trans people. “at least they don’t want to kill you” no they just want us to kill ourselves. that’s better i guess.

all this to say, trans men experience oppression in different ways to cis women and other trans people, because we are different people, and talking about those experiences does not harm trans women in any way. we are not speaking over trans women. we are not suggesting that trans women are in any way a threat to us. cisgender people who are upholding the gender binary and the patriarchy (and yes, that includes radfems) are a threat to us, in the same way that they’re a threat to trans women. we are all in the same boat. we just want to talk about the shit that we face and be listened to for once.

if you see this type of post, assume that it’s a terf. assume that it is a cisgendered terf, even if they claim to be part of the community, who is masquerading as a trans person in order to sow the seeds of discourse. even if I’m wrong, who cares. they’re getting blocked either way. terfs are trying to divide trans men and women right now, in the same way that men want them to divide cis women and trans women in order to distract them with infighting, and make trans men feel that they are not accepted or that their struggles are not real, so that they can groom trans men into detransitioning. people like OP are a threat to trans people. don’t fall for it.