@raytyger Thank You! Real Insight Into Cardgames = Gained!

#everything is a fucking lie from both sides at this point

No it isn't. The product defends itself.

So is everyone gonna just ignore the fact that the leaked Document that PM sent over to the Union states that Vellmori was the one to resign herself and was the one who didn't want the info being spread around?

Like, I'm not saying PM handled this shit well, because they absolutely didn't, but the whole thing of her being fired is apparently just a straight up fucking lie.

And, if the Document PM sent to the Union is to be trusted (which, if they lied about that, I imagine that would be even more legal trouble than is worth for them with all this shit going on), that means that everyone being mad at PM for not saying anything more is being mad at them for Following Vellmori's Wishes.

Again, I'm not saying that PM handled Any of this well. They absolutely should have made sure that Vellmori didn't feel so threatened that she felt the need to resign. They absolutely fucked up in that department.

But the main thing people focused on, Vellmori's firing, allegedly just wasn't even real.

What the fuck is even going on anymore.

//Btw, here's the source for the translation of the Certificate of Contents that PM sent to the Union and which was later leaked.

…and just like that, sins make sense. in fact, to the point where we can speculate sin resistances showcase what ideas would throw them off (tvtropes' Armor Piercing Question), ranting at a persona 4 boss-style. In other words, one could think of it in terms "what arguments could be used to talk down a sinner corroding over This Specific Idea". In case of base ego - their core/driving issue. …which would conviniently explain why their EGOs are conspicuously given LobCorp risk levels, and now the base egos are all zayin - too closely tied to the host with all their complexities, as opposed to going all-in on a specific idea.

to check is this out, i'd like to cross-reference it with people who have thought way more about characters than i did.

@lu-is-not-ok Land of Illusion: Gloom dmg down => Gloom on skill. Gloom as cost. More misery would be like pissing into the ocean. Wrath dmg up => from your writeups one gets the impression he's intensely not questioning about whether or not what his family is/was harming him. Upon being presented with list of grievances things done to him, specifically framed as "how is that kind?", i'm expecting some kind of meltdownception as a reaction. Especially in the context of 'not miserable over being disowned anymore, is is actually an improvement' Envy dmg up => one of the most striking bits when being introduced to EGOs is just how in your face the flavor of 'Hong Lu is hiding Issues' is. Thus, anyone noticing/bringing to attention (ie. forcing a reaction) should make the situation spiral out of control. If played out properly - by making the guy too busy venting to do the gloom-sinking-drowning routine on the party

Roseate Desire (shared with Ishmael): Lust dmg down => same as before. Already having fun, rampaging corrosion(?) continues Wrath dmg up => works only if you're right i.e. Pink Shoes corrosion is straight-up overtaking him in a "pleasant toy for others" sense. So to get him to stop, an appeal to indignation over this treatment would work, combined with… Pride dmg up => …appealing to Hong Lu knowing better how should he move, regardless of the consequences to the current puppeteer (wih Ish the angle would be somewhere along the lines of 'don't you have survivor(s) to hunt down?')

Dimension Shredder (shared with Yi Sang): Wrath dmg up, Lust dmg down => lines imply he's… having fun, all things considered? Pride dmg down => opens a rip and just walks into it. This is very safe. Envy dmg down => Wayward Passenger moves around, without accomplishing much. Bringing to attention W Corp's inaction to their plight should bring results.

@delusinalandpassionate La Sangre de Sancho: Wrath dmg up => makes no sense unless you grab that "to escape one's unfavorable circumstances, or to even reject one's own true nature" from the writeup very hard and declare she killed Sancho and may or may not be actively suppressing it. Lust dmg down => as mentioned above, because DonQ is already indulging encouraging to do so won't change behavior. Gloom dmg up => just the 'suppressing misery because HEROICS!!!' bit, again.

Fluid Sac (shared with Faust): if the concept is indulging in one's misery, resist+ are covered. The fish is fishy, so rest depends on one's read of Ichthys' core idea. dmg up => can't continue if she is forced to react (Envy)/abandon current pursuits (Pride)?

Lifetime Stew (shared with Sinclair): what is even the idea of this thing, other than Stone Soup* if it's 'to make the bestest soup ever!!!', to explain how it can require both Lust alone from Don Quixote and Wrath/Lust/Gluttony from Sinclair, then Sloth and Gloom weakness would mirror despondence/just following recipe & frustration over not getting it perfect/not being able to enjoy it? *Terms and Conditions apply Telepole (shared with Faust and Heathcliff) electrodoggo's theme is 'being controlled', yes? As such, it is reacting to external impulses (Envy dmg down). All three play along because they more-or-less agree with them, so to speak (Pride dmg down). Gluttony dmg up here being appeal to stop, because it'll kill them (glut-as-survi), and Sloth dmg up as leveraging exhaustion caused by this behavior

as a sidenote, doggo made no sense until i got to write down '(electrical) impulse = impulse (to act)'

when checking against canto 1~4… Suddenly, One Day: push forward the idea of chopping his arm off permanently (as seeing with other IDs, for extra zing) to settle the spiral of uncontrollable mutations stressing him out, which makes them go faster What is Cast: matter of preventing a repeat from the past by having outside influence (Envy) remind of negative consequences (Gloom) Branch of Knowledge: same as Rodion; Wrath would be aforementioned self-defiance, Pride from calling out how well making dicey decisions worked out last time.

…a lot of base egos have Envy dmg up. sus. i mean, corroded units straight up have these resistances, yeah? If it's not dealing with base EGO corrosion equivalent, alternatively these could be an out to sinners turning into Peccatulums, which would implicitly explain what's up with Invidiae - if the proposed solution works, either the target reacts to getting talked out of it or doesn't and turns.

Lu's Guide to Sin Analysis

Welp, since my brain is too focused on having K Corp Hong Lu go full unga bunga in Mirror Dungeons to write full analyses, I decided I might as well give something else to all the people starving for Limbus Theory content.

So, here we are. A basic guide on how I approach the Sin Analysis portion of my analyses, covering my personal interpretations for each Sin, as well as how to use those when analysing both E.G.Os and Identities.

That way, ya'll can dabble in doing some of this on your own when I'm too busy grinding my way to 400 hours of play time on Limbus to write up full analyses.

Sounds good? Awesome. Under the cut we go, wheeeee!

Sin Interpretations

Let's start with the most important part - the Sins themselves.

I want you to take a moment and think about your own associations with those Sins. Perhaps your immediate thought is to take the words used literally. Maybe you immediately think back to the Biblical ideas of the Seven Deadly Sins. Mayhaps there's some other media you know that also uses Sins in some way, which you subconsciously default to when thinking about them.

Whatever those associations are, I want you to throw them away.

That's right. Whatever is telling you that Lust = Horny, Wrath = Angry, Envy = Jealous, etc, etc? Throw all of those preconcieved notions away.

This is the biggest mistake I see people make when trying to analyse Identities and E.G.O based on their Sins - they assume that those Sins have the same meanings in the context of Limbus as the popular, more common interpretations of them.

And while, sure, some of them can definitely overlap with what one would expect them to be, I think relying on those during analysis instead of trying to understand what the game itself is trying to tell us by using those Sins as symbols is doing its storytelling a massive disservice.

Do I think my personal interpretations of the Sins are a 100% accurate reading? No, of course not. I can't see into the mind of Kim Ji-Hoon or whoever else at Project Moon might have been the mastermind behind deciding what Sins connect to what. I have no way of knowing what exactly they intended here.

However, I do wish to believe that my interpretations not only strive to meet the game's storytelling on its own terms, but also hopefully make further analysis based on those interpretations a bit easier to wrap one's head around.

...God I really need to stop writing massive preambles and just get to the fucking point.

So let's actually get to The Fucking Point. Sin Interpretations, one by one. Let's fucking do it.

Wrath

The flames of revolution burn bright in the face of cold winds.

Wrath is the Sin of self-righteousness and defiance. To act with Wrath is to decide that one deserves better, that things around then should bend to their will, and then take matters into their own hands. It's the Sin of deciding one has the right to change something simply because they don't like the current state of things.

There are many ways one can act because of Wrath. It can show through trying to rebel against authority, to subvert one's fate, to escape one's unfavorable circumstances, or to even reject one's own true nature. To act with Wrath is to stand up for oneself and tell reality "No, I refuse!" loud and clear.

A common misconception of Wrath is the idea that anger is an inherent part of it. While it's true that those feelings often coincide with defiance, they're not required for one's acts to be fueled by Wrath. Some can be Wrathful while being completely calm and collected, as their acts of defiance could be more on the quiet and simmering side.

Likewise, being quick to anger isn't always a sign of Wrath. It's very possible for someone to have a short temper, while also being fully accepting of the reality they live in (Ryoshu, I am looking directly at you), thus lacking Wrath.

Lust

One's base insticts go all the way back to that genetic code.

Lust is the Sin of self-indulgence. It's the Sin of letting one's own desires and whims dictate one's actions. It's also the Sin of seeking personal fulfillment above all else. To act with Lust is to give up one's self-control and let one's instincts and wants guide them.

Unlike what the name and symbol might initially imply, Lust can include many different types of desires, not just the carnal.

Likewise, acts of Lust can be just as varied as one's desires. Satisfying one's most basic of needs, searching for a form of spiritual enlightenment, or even just saying the first thing that comes to mind because one feels like it are just a few examples.

Sloth

A stone will not care for what happens to it, nor the world around it.

Sloth is the Sin of apathy and resignation. Unlike other Sins, which mostly show through one's direct actions, Sloth can also show through inaction.

To act with Sloth is to ignore reality, to let oneself go along with whatever is happening with barely any complaints. As such, Sloth is commonly associated with blind obedience or unwillingness to act out.

Due to its nature as a Sin of resignation, Sloth can be seen as the direct opposite of Wrath, the Sin of defiance. This creates a unique situation where the inclusion of one can drastically shift the context of the other if both are a part of the same Identity or E.G.O.

Gluttony

Plants never stop waging wars, always wanting just a little bit more.

Gluttony is the Sin of hunger, and it's unique from the other Sins in that it equally represents two different ideas of that hunger, which can appear together just as often as they can be completely seperated.

The first type of Gluttony is one of the starving hunger of survival. In this context, to act with Gluttony is to do anything for the sake of scraping by and living to see another day.

The second type of Gluttony is the hunger for more, or in other words: greed. In this context, to act with Gluttony is to do everything for the sake of this idea of "more". To gain more wealth, to find more recognition, to make more progress.

Both of these types of Gluttony are unified in one main point - they are, by definition, endless. The struggle for survival never ends, unless one fails to survive. Likewise, there is no finite "more" that greed is reaching towards, it's a neverending process of one-upmanship.

Gloom

When a wave of emotion rises, many will be swept away in its wake.

Gloom is the Sin of dwelling on feelings. To act with Gloom is to be guided by one's negative emotions, to buckle under stress and let it control one's mind and actions.

While sadness, grief, and depression are the states of mind most commonly associated with Gloom, and are often a part of it, they're not inherent to it. The only "requirement" here is the experience of severe emotional duress, and acting out in direct response to it.

In a way, Gloom is the Sin of losing control over oneself, not dissimilar to Lust. However, the main difference here is the cause of losing that control. Gloom is the loss of self-control due to being overwhelmed by negative experiences, while Lust is the loss of self-control due to seeking out positive experiences.

Pride

Be careful, for that double-edged sword may cut you as well.

Pride is the Sin of ignoring consequences. Acts of Pride are all actions taken because of the belief that their benefits outweigh the cost in some way. While the most common way this can present is through actions that benefit oneself at the cost of others, it's not the only way Pride can manifest.

One can be Prideful when believing the benefit to many outweighs the consequences. Likewise, refusing to acknowledge the harm one brings to themself because their actions benefit them in some other way also counts as Pride.

The idea that Pride is inherently tied to selfishness or self-confidence is another common misconception. In fact, Prideful acts can manifest just as often from a lack of self-confidence or a misguided selflessness. Rather, one could interpret Pride as a form of willful ignorance, in a way.

Envy

Thorns don't go out of their way to harm, they merely react to your touch.

Envy is the Sin of reaction and retribution. It's the idea of doing something because of what someone else has done. By definition, one cannot act with Envy without some form of provocation.

Like is the case with many other Sins, acts of Envy can take many forms, from taking revenge to following orders. The main connecting idea here is letting oneself be influenced by another person, whether it's being coerced, provoked, ordered, or otherwise manipulated.

Out of all of the Sin misconceptions, seeing Envy as inherently tied to jealousy might be the worst one of all. While acts done out of jealousy would likely count as acts of Envy, they are but a miniscule part of the sheer scope that Envy represents.

...

Alright, so you know what each of those Sins means. Now it's time to figure out how to Actually Apply Them.

Sin Affinities in the context of Identities

The main way Sins play a role in a given Sinner's Identity is through their Sin Affinities. Mechanically, these are the Sins attributed to each of their skills, signifying both their type of Sin damage and what Sin resource they generate upon being used.

However, this is Project Moon we're talking about, and these fuckers can't keep their gameplay mechanics seperate from the story to save their lives.

So, this begs the question: what can we learn about a Sinner's given Identity through their Sin Affinities?

Here is the method that I believe works best in my experience:

The Sin affinities of each of an Identity's skills represent a different layer of their psyche and motivations. I'm going to try to show what I mean by using base Identities of the four Sinners who already had their own Canto.

Skill 1's Sin Affinity is the surface level motivation of the Sinner's actions. This is the most obvious and "shallow" reading of them and their actions, and also likely the one the Sinners themselves are most aware of.

Gregor's Skill 1 is Gloom due to him being constatly haunted by his trauma, with much of his cynicism and dark-ish sense of humor being shaped by his war experiences. Rodya's Skill 1 is Gluttony due to her tendency to value material goods and love for food, which are signs of her greed and will to survive respectively. Sinclair's Skill 1 is Pride due to him taking many actions (such as sharing his father's secrets or giving Kromer his basement key) for their immediate benefits, without considering the consequences. Yi Sang's Skill 1 is Gloom due to him falling into deep depression and letting the trauma of the past shape his current actions.

Skill 2's Sin Affinity is a deeper motivation of the Sinner's actions. It's delving deeper into their psyche to see what guides them in less obvious ways. This Sin Affinity can also have noticeably closer ties to the Sinner's background in one way or another.

Gregor's Skill 2 is Gluttony due to him being driven by the will to survive, most notably expressed by him leaving the rest of the veterans to escape the war and try to live after it ended. Rodya's Skill 2 is Pride due to her fully believing in what she does working out in her favor, completely ignoring consequences on the way. Her killing the pawnbroker is the biggest example of an act of Pride, as she fully believed that it would help her neighbourhood despite the consequences that murder would bring. Sinclair's Skill 2 is Wrath due to him not accepting his circumstances. His want to defy his future prosthetics procedure is what eventually led him to agreeing with Kromer, and his will to defy her is what drove him through the events of his chapter. Yi Sang's Skill 2 is Envy due to his passive nature and how easily he lets other people dictate his actions. It's especially notable in how after the League fell apart, he would have been willing to do anything Gubo told him at that moment.

Skill 3's Sin Affinity is what I would like to call a Sinner's Core Sin. It's the true main reason behind their actions, and has a much closer and direct tie into their past than the other Sin Affinities. In a way, this is the deepest layer of their psyche.

Gregor's Skill 3 is Sloth as his resignation to his circumstances is what colors much of his past. He learned that resistance is futile early in life, and it shows. Though he didn't want to fight in the war, he felt like he had no choice but to. All of his life, he simply listened to orders without complaint, unable to see a way to change his situation. Rodya's Skill 3 is Wrath as her self-righteousness and defiance is what drove her actions at the deepest level. She first joined the Yurodiviye because she wanted to bring change the state of her neighbourhood, and likewise left them when she no longer agreed with how they did things. Her murder of the pawnbroker was her biggest act of defiance, of taking matters into her own hands and trying to bring change to her reality at all cost. Sinclair's Skill 3 is Envy as much of his actions were dictated by other people. Social pressure was what led to him first breaching the trust of his family, and Kromer's coercion and manipulation is what then led to his family's death. In a way, you could also interpret Sinclair's arc in Canto III as one big act of Envy, as he finally tries to take revenge on Kromer for what she has done. Yi Sang's Skill 3 is Sloth as his apathy to the reality around him is what led to him ignoring the warnings signs of the League falling apart, and the resignation that followed could have resulted in him helping Gubo and the New League out with their horrible plans had there not been an intervention. It's only by the end of Canto IV that he finally manages to break out of this state for long enough to stand up for himself and decide to keep on living.

So, that's the basics of Sin Affinities when it comes to Identities! Now, some of you might be asking, "Hey Lu, what about Sin resources needed for Passives?", and my answer to that is...

Honestly, I don't entirely know! I do think there probably is some reason beyond pure gameplay mechanics... Buuuuut I don't think their importance is as major as the main Sin Affinities of a given Identity, especially since there isn't a single Passive that is activated by a Sin that the given Identity doesn't have any Affinity to.

Sin Affinities in the context of E.G.Os

Alright, so, when it comes to E.G.O, we run into some additional complexities. Unlike Identities, which can usually have their Sins Analysed with minimal additional context, E.G.O Sin Analysis has to be done under a specific angle.

This is because while Identities represent the Sinner as a whole person, E.G.Os represent a specific singular part of that Sinner.

Base E.G.Os usually seem to tie back to a specific event or action or some other thing in that Sinner's past. Likewise, E.G.Os derived from Abnormalities represent the ways that Sinner connects to that Abnormality's own themes.

In a way, the game's worldbuilding even acknowledges the fact that a Sinner can only use the E.G.O of an Abnormality they relate to in some way, as Dante's Notes describe the process of the Sinners using E.G.O as trying to make the Abnormality's emotions and identity their own.

That little tangent aside, there are two main things to analyze sin-wise when it comes to E.G.O - the Sin Affinity, and the Sin Resources necessary to use that E.G.O.

An E.G.O Sin Affinity works similarly to an Identity's Sin Affinities - for a Base E.G.O, it's the main Sin that action manifests as. For an Abno-derived E.G.O, it's the Sin that contextulizes the way the Abno's themes connect to the Sinner in question.

The Sin Resources an E.G.O needs is where things get fun. These are what a Sinner needs to be able to use the E.G.O, both mechanically AND story-wise. The Sins here represent what a Sinner has as their motivation and drive to fully reflect what that E.G.O represents. For Base E.G.Os, it's why they took the actions they did. For Abno E.G.Os, it's why they connect to that Abno's themes and why they're able to relate to it.

Now... There is one more thing about E.G.Os that I don't really talk about.

Sin Resistances.

The reason why I don't talk about them... Is because I have No Fucking Clue how to interpret them. There has to be some importance to them (Hong Lu being weak to Wrath in all of his E.G.O thus far, I am looking at you), I just don't know what it is. In fact, I doubt we even have enough information available to us right now to be able to say for sure.

I don't know how to end these posts dear fucking lord-

So uh. Yeah. That's. Everything that I think is important to mention on the topic of Sin Analysis and how I do it. If I ever change my mind on something or have an epiphany regarding one of the things I currently have no idea about, I'll probably reblog this post with an addendum or something, but until then...

Uh. Yeah. Hope this helps the people who wanna get into analyzing Limbus stuff but don't know where to begin. Or just people who wanna understand the method to my madness a little bit better.

I'm gonna go to sleep now, cause it's 4 AM already and I spent like the whole fucking night writing this post.

>#unfortunately (for me. its probably a good thing for everyone else) i am not the writer and cant have that whenever you type something, you're a writer. Ao3 awaits >:3

sauce since that sounded too spicy:

looks like a missing comma, tbh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ moreover, why reveal who was affected (who and how gains from this 'fame')? what actions would be good enough to reverse the damage? Whoever is banned left. Quietly unremoving posts would mess with people's blogs, and PMs informing of it would not be viral - depending on for how long (very) and relentless (also very) this went on this may mean flipping through - by hand - thousands of posts while the current backlog grows.

what IS notable, however, hides lower: >Most importantly, and why she is banned from Tumblr for life, is she made threats of violence against Tumblr staff. translation: as long as you don't prod the mods you're good to go!

its dope how the CEO of this website can casually drop the fact that he had at least one content moderator on payroll who was accepting bribes to take down blogs on request, without revealing who was affected by this or what actions were taken to reverse the damage, and were all just supposed to be like oh ok thanks for taking care of that :D

>#poison is unfair to the reader because it requires them a knowledge of chemistry And i still find the "oh i can stop my heart on command" bit ridiculous. It doesn't work that way, as control over it is part of autonomic nervous system/too mission-critical for manual control, so to speak. In other words: within BSD universe it's perfectly legit, and this 'legitness' is a tool that can be fired at maximum drama. But i like your version better~

I don’t think that Dazai and Fyodor are really poisoned. Dazai would probably know about a poison that could kill  him in 30 minutes but didn’t seem to know it, it wasn’t said that it was a poison made by a gifted, and there was no chemical name or even street name given. Not to mention the fact that it has an antidote and is an injection, and would take thirty minutes before killing them with seemingly no symptoms until then. Injections normally work really fast, or at least puts people in pain quickly before killing them. Poisons with antidotes are really rare. And the most important part of this theory?

We don’t know how long Dazai has actually been poisoned for.

When the time stopping gifted is killed, Dazai says the signals just stopped. He was continuously receiving signals with time pausing. For all we know, he’s  been poisoned longer than thirty minutes by now, and is still experiencing no symptoms. He and Fyodor have effectively been poisoned for different lengths of time, and Dazai doesn’t seem worse off. I think that they’re not poisoned, and they both know it.

Now what would Nikolai’s plan be with this?

Well, the antidote being the real poison feels like the exact kind of chaotic bullshit he would pull.

finding this curious as i was debating whether or not to link your Summation in there. Like, someone solved DQ 'just' before canto 7 and response was ecstatic? what gives?

A momentous occasion is upon us.

The Daiyu-Baoyu theory has its first haters on Reddit 🎉🎉🎉🎉

// Anyway don't go harass anyone over this m'kay? In fact I hope we get more haters cause I actually find these comments really entertaining.

I hope we get enough Redditors knowing about it and hating it that someone tries to make a full post trying to disprove it so I can milk that thing and talk about my own experience desperately trying, in vain, to find contradictions that would disprove it myself.

Do you mind if I ask your top 10 favorite characters (can be male or female) from all of the media that you loved (can be anime/manga, books, movies or tv series)? And why do you love them? Sorry if you've answered this question before.....Thanks...

Why do you ask?

carmen as nyarla with boobs: their function is roughly the same, tho in early Personas nyarlathotep targets specific people as part of their game with philemon, who would be… ayin? uh.

does that mean qliphoth deterrence works on personas

manifesting personas as weapons/suits

peccatulums ranking as cannon fodder oppositions in palaces distortion-spaces, does that mean that they can also manifest from thin air?

re: reloads; they don't really match to the 'embodiment of self/desires' so probably not. That said: then Head cracks down hard on them for unpatented/untaxed ammo production

negotiations, but steamlined into MD event setups. and to add to that - REMOVING SMT FROM PERSONA

shadow-possession (P1?/P2/P4) as a full-blown distortion

finally handling jungs "overpowered by their own persona" - with a distortion, naturally

pls elaborate about the sufficent velocity thing

Persona and Project Moon crossover things

because we need more persona project moon crossover stuff hot dang

the well and the sea of souls are like. if they aren't the same thing, they're right next to each other. joker has a fusion accident and ends up with mountain of smiling bodies instead of legion.

give me a plucky teenager who summons One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds as their starter persona.

NETZACH QUEST IN PERSONA 3 IT FITS SO MUCH DAMN (if you're a Sufficient Velocity person you know what i'm talking about)

Post Persona 5 bad ending AU where after getting absolutely wiped from existence, the PT wake up in The City. It's just the logical conclusion to that bad end, where no one is free and only thinks about surviving to the next day. No one hopes, no one dreams, no one believes in anything. The strong crush the weak, the weak gang up on the weaker, and the cycle goes on and on and on. Literally their worst case scenario nightmare.

On that note, Carmen and crew really saw the Fall of Humanity and went "I can fix them!" (they could not)

Considering The Library is made of Light, which is like, concentrated enlightenment and hope, I think Morgana would be drawn to it (and then they all get booked lmao)

Carmen's Palace. Just in general. If she even has one; it's not that her desires aren't distorted, it's that SHE IS THE DISTORTED/ING DESIRE INCARNATE-

Joker manages to capture an Abnormality as a Persona somehow. Shenanigans ensue.

Speaking of shenanigans, considering the way the mind manifests in The City, I wonder if the PT's guns would do that thing they do in Royal where they automatically reload after a fight. On that note, I feel like that trick would fail against higher level humans since their augments likely let them see past the fakeness

JOKER 👏 AND 👏 AKECHI 👏 GONE 👏ANGELS 👏 ANI 👏MATIC👏 YOU 👏 COWARDS 👏👏👏/lh

add more if you like, i would love to discuss further

Ledgerdemain, noun: sleight of hand (what hand), skillful hiding of truth in order to trick people. False Apple: shiny and golden and utterly rotten once the outer layer peels itself to show that rot. So you have an easygoing, sociable guy that is perfectly fine! …except as Lu mentioned, the bug arm is a clever metaphor for PTSD. It's always there. In plain view. But he manages to make people look past it. Just like people look past that he did desert/survive, meaning: free survivor's guilt. Yuri dying when they could facetank everything transposes itself into what is already his deal. Closer to his recent (unprocessed) issues, so easier to invoke/drop, hence zayin. As opposed to AEDD, which probably would require actively focusing on the past + being able to do jack shit to Hermann for it, which is probably not something that's often a surface-level thought.

Corrosion, fluff edition: p sure it's somewhere in the canon that it's Abnormality memeplex overtaking the person? so corrosion would be on par with Personaesque shadow-possession and/or persona overtaking the host (Jung did write about this a bit), suppressing the hidden parts. In that sense, in that all thoughts/emotions that run contrary to the core idea of an abno would be suppressed, and impulses in line of it running wildly.

Lu's Guide to Sin Analysis

Welp, since my brain is too focused on having K Corp Hong Lu go full unga bunga in Mirror Dungeons to write full analyses, I decided I might as well give something else to all the people starving for Limbus Theory content.

So, here we are. A basic guide on how I approach the Sin Analysis portion of my analyses, covering my personal interpretations for each Sin, as well as how to use those when analysing both E.G.Os and Identities.

That way, ya'll can dabble in doing some of this on your own when I'm too busy grinding my way to 400 hours of play time on Limbus to write up full analyses.

Sounds good? Awesome. Under the cut we go, wheeeee!

Sin Interpretations

Let's start with the most important part - the Sins themselves.

I want you to take a moment and think about your own associations with those Sins. Perhaps your immediate thought is to take the words used literally. Maybe you immediately think back to the Biblical ideas of the Seven Deadly Sins. Mayhaps there's some other media you know that also uses Sins in some way, which you subconsciously default to when thinking about them.

Whatever those associations are, I want you to throw them away.

That's right. Whatever is telling you that Lust = Horny, Wrath = Angry, Envy = Jealous, etc, etc? Throw all of those preconcieved notions away.

This is the biggest mistake I see people make when trying to analyse Identities and E.G.O based on their Sins - they assume that those Sins have the same meanings in the context of Limbus as the popular, more common interpretations of them.

And while, sure, some of them can definitely overlap with what one would expect them to be, I think relying on those during analysis instead of trying to understand what the game itself is trying to tell us by using those Sins as symbols is doing its storytelling a massive disservice.

Do I think my personal interpretations of the Sins are a 100% accurate reading? No, of course not. I can't see into the mind of Kim Ji-Hoon or whoever else at Project Moon might have been the mastermind behind deciding what Sins connect to what. I have no way of knowing what exactly they intended here.

However, I do wish to believe that my interpretations not only strive to meet the game's storytelling on its own terms, but also hopefully make further analysis based on those interpretations a bit easier to wrap one's head around.

...God I really need to stop writing massive preambles and just get to the fucking point.

So let's actually get to The Fucking Point. Sin Interpretations, one by one. Let's fucking do it.

Wrath

The flames of revolution burn bright in the face of cold winds.

Wrath is the Sin of self-righteousness and defiance. To act with Wrath is to decide that one deserves better, that things around then should bend to their will, and then take matters into their own hands. It's the Sin of deciding one has the right to change something simply because they don't like the current state of things.

There are many ways one can act because of Wrath. It can show through trying to rebel against authority, to subvert one's fate, to escape one's unfavorable circumstances, or to even reject one's own true nature. To act with Wrath is to stand up for oneself and tell reality "No, I refuse!" loud and clear.

A common misconception of Wrath is the idea that anger is an inherent part of it. While it's true that those feelings often coincide with defiance, they're not required for one's acts to be fueled by Wrath. Some can be Wrathful while being completely calm and collected, as their acts of defiance could be more on the quiet and simmering side.

Likewise, being quick to anger isn't always a sign of Wrath. It's very possible for someone to have a short temper, while also being fully accepting of the reality they live in (Ryoshu, I am looking directly at you), thus lacking Wrath.

Lust

One's base insticts go all the way back to that genetic code.

Lust is the Sin of self-indulgence. It's the Sin of letting one's own desires and whims dictate one's actions. It's also the Sin of seeking personal fulfillment above all else. To act with Lust is to give up one's self-control and let one's instincts and wants guide them.

Unlike what the name and symbol might initially imply, Lust can include many different types of desires, not just the carnal.

Likewise, acts of Lust can be just as varied as one's desires. Satisfying one's most basic of needs, searching for a form of spiritual enlightenment, or even just saying the first thing that comes to mind because one feels like it are just a few examples.

Sloth

A stone will not care for what happens to it, nor the world around it.

Sloth is the Sin of apathy and resignation. Unlike other Sins, which mostly show through one's direct actions, Sloth can also show through inaction.

To act with Sloth is to ignore reality, to let oneself go along with whatever is happening with barely any complaints. As such, Sloth is commonly associated with blind obedience or unwillingness to act out.

Due to its nature as a Sin of resignation, Sloth can be seen as the direct opposite of Wrath, the Sin of defiance. This creates a unique situation where the inclusion of one can drastically shift the context of the other if both are a part of the same Identity or E.G.O.

Gluttony

Plants never stop waging wars, always wanting just a little bit more.

Gluttony is the Sin of hunger, and it's unique from the other Sins in that it equally represents two different ideas of that hunger, which can appear together just as often as they can be completely seperated.

The first type of Gluttony is one of the starving hunger of survival. In this context, to act with Gluttony is to do anything for the sake of scraping by and living to see another day.

The second type of Gluttony is the hunger for more, or in other words: greed. In this context, to act with Gluttony is to do everything for the sake of this idea of "more". To gain more wealth, to find more recognition, to make more progress.

Both of these types of Gluttony are unified in one main point - they are, by definition, endless. The struggle for survival never ends, unless one fails to survive. Likewise, there is no finite "more" that greed is reaching towards, it's a neverending process of one-upmanship.

Gloom

When a wave of emotion rises, many will be swept away in its wake.

Gloom is the Sin of dwelling on feelings. To act with Gloom is to be guided by one's negative emotions, to buckle under stress and let it control one's mind and actions.

While sadness, grief, and depression are the states of mind most commonly associated with Gloom, and are often a part of it, they're not inherent to it. The only "requirement" here is the experience of severe emotional duress, and acting out in direct response to it.

In a way, Gloom is the Sin of losing control over oneself, not dissimilar to Lust. However, the main difference here is the cause of losing that control. Gloom is the loss of self-control due to being overwhelmed by negative experiences, while Lust is the loss of self-control due to seeking out positive experiences.

Pride

Be careful, for that double-edged sword may cut you as well.

Pride is the Sin of ignoring consequences. Acts of Pride are all actions taken because of the belief that their benefits outweigh the cost in some way. While the most common way this can present is through actions that benefit oneself at the cost of others, it's not the only way Pride can manifest.

One can be Prideful when believing the benefit to many outweighs the consequences. Likewise, refusing to acknowledge the harm one brings to themself because their actions benefit them in some other way also counts as Pride.

The idea that Pride is inherently tied to selfishness or self-confidence is another common misconception. In fact, Prideful acts can manifest just as often from a lack of self-confidence or a misguided selflessness. Rather, one could interpret Pride as a form of willful ignorance, in a way.

Envy

Thorns don't go out of their way to harm, they merely react to your touch.

Envy is the Sin of reaction and retribution. It's the idea of doing something because of what someone else has done. By definition, one cannot act with Envy without some form of provocation.

Like is the case with many other Sins, acts of Envy can take many forms, from taking revenge to following orders. The main connecting idea here is letting oneself be influenced by another person, whether it's being coerced, provoked, ordered, or otherwise manipulated.

Out of all of the Sin misconceptions, seeing Envy as inherently tied to jealousy might be the worst one of all. While acts done out of jealousy would likely count as acts of Envy, they are but a miniscule part of the sheer scope that Envy represents.

...

Alright, so you know what each of those Sins means. Now it's time to figure out how to Actually Apply Them.

Sin Affinities in the context of Identities

The main way Sins play a role in a given Sinner's Identity is through their Sin Affinities. Mechanically, these are the Sins attributed to each of their skills, signifying both their type of Sin damage and what Sin resource they generate upon being used.

However, this is Project Moon we're talking about, and these fuckers can't keep their gameplay mechanics seperate from the story to save their lives.

So, this begs the question: what can we learn about a Sinner's given Identity through their Sin Affinities?

Here is the method that I believe works best in my experience:

The Sin affinities of each of an Identity's skills represent a different layer of their psyche and motivations. I'm going to try to show what I mean by using base Identities of the four Sinners who already had their own Canto.

Skill 1's Sin Affinity is the surface level motivation of the Sinner's actions. This is the most obvious and "shallow" reading of them and their actions, and also likely the one the Sinners themselves are most aware of.

Gregor's Skill 1 is Gloom due to him being constatly haunted by his trauma, with much of his cynicism and dark-ish sense of humor being shaped by his war experiences. Rodya's Skill 1 is Gluttony due to her tendency to value material goods and love for food, which are signs of her greed and will to survive respectively. Sinclair's Skill 1 is Pride due to him taking many actions (such as sharing his father's secrets or giving Kromer his basement key) for their immediate benefits, without considering the consequences. Yi Sang's Skill 1 is Gloom due to him falling into deep depression and letting the trauma of the past shape his current actions.

Skill 2's Sin Affinity is a deeper motivation of the Sinner's actions. It's delving deeper into their psyche to see what guides them in less obvious ways. This Sin Affinity can also have noticeably closer ties to the Sinner's background in one way or another.

Gregor's Skill 2 is Gluttony due to him being driven by the will to survive, most notably expressed by him leaving the rest of the veterans to escape the war and try to live after it ended. Rodya's Skill 2 is Pride due to her fully believing in what she does working out in her favor, completely ignoring consequences on the way. Her killing the pawnbroker is the biggest example of an act of Pride, as she fully believed that it would help her neighbourhood despite the consequences that murder would bring. Sinclair's Skill 2 is Wrath due to him not accepting his circumstances. His want to defy his future prosthetics procedure is what eventually led him to agreeing with Kromer, and his will to defy her is what drove him through the events of his chapter. Yi Sang's Skill 2 is Envy due to his passive nature and how easily he lets other people dictate his actions. It's especially notable in how after the League fell apart, he would have been willing to do anything Gubo told him at that moment.

Skill 3's Sin Affinity is what I would like to call a Sinner's Core Sin. It's the true main reason behind their actions, and has a much closer and direct tie into their past than the other Sin Affinities. In a way, this is the deepest layer of their psyche.

Gregor's Skill 3 is Sloth as his resignation to his circumstances is what colors much of his past. He learned that resistance is futile early in life, and it shows. Though he didn't want to fight in the war, he felt like he had no choice but to. All of his life, he simply listened to orders without complaint, unable to see a way to change his situation. Rodya's Skill 3 is Wrath as her self-righteousness and defiance is what drove her actions at the deepest level. She first joined the Yurodiviye because she wanted to bring change the state of her neighbourhood, and likewise left them when she no longer agreed with how they did things. Her murder of the pawnbroker was her biggest act of defiance, of taking matters into her own hands and trying to bring change to her reality at all cost. Sinclair's Skill 3 is Envy as much of his actions were dictated by other people. Social pressure was what led to him first breaching the trust of his family, and Kromer's coercion and manipulation is what then led to his family's death. In a way, you could also interpret Sinclair's arc in Canto III as one big act of Envy, as he finally tries to take revenge on Kromer for what she has done. Yi Sang's Skill 3 is Sloth as his apathy to the reality around him is what led to him ignoring the warnings signs of the League falling apart, and the resignation that followed could have resulted in him helping Gubo and the New League out with their horrible plans had there not been an intervention. It's only by the end of Canto IV that he finally manages to break out of this state for long enough to stand up for himself and decide to keep on living.

So, that's the basics of Sin Affinities when it comes to Identities! Now, some of you might be asking, "Hey Lu, what about Sin resources needed for Passives?", and my answer to that is...

Honestly, I don't entirely know! I do think there probably is some reason beyond pure gameplay mechanics... Buuuuut I don't think their importance is as major as the main Sin Affinities of a given Identity, especially since there isn't a single Passive that is activated by a Sin that the given Identity doesn't have any Affinity to.

Sin Affinities in the context of E.G.Os

Alright, so, when it comes to E.G.O, we run into some additional complexities. Unlike Identities, which can usually have their Sins Analysed with minimal additional context, E.G.O Sin Analysis has to be done under a specific angle.

This is because while Identities represent the Sinner as a whole person, E.G.Os represent a specific singular part of that Sinner.

Base E.G.Os usually seem to tie back to a specific event or action or some other thing in that Sinner's past. Likewise, E.G.Os derived from Abnormalities represent the ways that Sinner connects to that Abnormality's own themes.

In a way, the game's worldbuilding even acknowledges the fact that a Sinner can only use the E.G.O of an Abnormality they relate to in some way, as Dante's Notes describe the process of the Sinners using E.G.O as trying to make the Abnormality's emotions and identity their own.

That little tangent aside, there are two main things to analyze sin-wise when it comes to E.G.O - the Sin Affinity, and the Sin Resources necessary to use that E.G.O.

An E.G.O Sin Affinity works similarly to an Identity's Sin Affinities - for a Base E.G.O, it's the main Sin that action manifests as. For an Abno-derived E.G.O, it's the Sin that contextulizes the way the Abno's themes connect to the Sinner in question.

The Sin Resources an E.G.O needs is where things get fun. These are what a Sinner needs to be able to use the E.G.O, both mechanically AND story-wise. The Sins here represent what a Sinner has as their motivation and drive to fully reflect what that E.G.O represents. For Base E.G.Os, it's why they took the actions they did. For Abno E.G.Os, it's why they connect to that Abno's themes and why they're able to relate to it.

Now... There is one more thing about E.G.Os that I don't really talk about.

Sin Resistances.

The reason why I don't talk about them... Is because I have No Fucking Clue how to interpret them. There has to be some importance to them (Hong Lu being weak to Wrath in all of his E.G.O thus far, I am looking at you), I just don't know what it is. In fact, I doubt we even have enough information available to us right now to be able to say for sure.

I don't know how to end these posts dear fucking lord-

So uh. Yeah. That's. Everything that I think is important to mention on the topic of Sin Analysis and how I do it. If I ever change my mind on something or have an epiphany regarding one of the things I currently have no idea about, I'll probably reblog this post with an addendum or something, but until then...

Uh. Yeah. Hope this helps the people who wanna get into analyzing Limbus stuff but don't know where to begin. Or just people who wanna understand the method to my madness a little bit better.

I'm gonna go to sleep now, cause it's 4 AM already and I spent like the whole fucking night writing this post.

Harlan Ellison's 'The Deathbird'?! no way, but…. the kanji matches?!

I just found out Fyodor's cello piece from the 3rd season is called "Bird of death" and I find that interesting for a few reasons.

First of all, is it connected to Nikolai? They work together and -shipping aside - if they're actually friends, it would make sense for Fyodor to write a piece either for him or simply inspired by him. Not only are birds associated with Nikolai, but death as well since he was supposed to die by being cut in half. He also kills people, so if we combine all those things, they kind of make him a symbolic bird of death.

Secondly, it would make the cello scene have a slightly different atmosphere as Fyodor would be playing a piece he associates with his friend who's going to die after commiting a series of murders while a different murder is taking place. Also the situation would be even weirder for Katsura because it would mean he was kidnapped by a guy who didn't just play cello for him, but play a piece he associates with his friend. Of course Katsura would have no way of knowing, but still.

Thirdly, does that make Fyodor a bird of death? Because if it's not connected with Nikolai whatsoever, then it's most likely connected with Fyodor himself. It would make sense because he kills people as well, but would also accidentally make both Fyodor and Nikolai be associated with both birds and death (#matchingimagery).

Lastly, how much does studio Bones know?? I checked the dates of manga volume releases and Sunday tragedy chapters did come out back in 2017, so the team working on the anime would have enough time to integrate this title as an easter egg if they wanted to do that (as the 3rd season began in April 2019), but then again it seems like a random idea to allude to a character from a future arc that they weren't animating at the time. Either a member of the team was/is a fan of bsd or they're getting extra info on future events. Bones also seems to be making surprising decisions when adapting the material (such as putting Fyodor in Untold Origins), so I think it's possible they know something we don't.

But it's also possible that Bird of Death has a different meaning that I'm not aware of or it's all just a coincidence haha