Analyzing Eren`s View Of Freedom

I don’t care what others says, I love this two girls OwO

Hey! I've been really enjoying a lot of your posts lately, and there's a question that's been bothering me that seems to be within your area of focus.

In SnK the theme of facing reality over escapism is very strong, and sometimes it seems like the story views things like dreams in a negative light, something that ought to be selflessly given up to truly change anything. Erwin's dream is said to be childlike, and Armin's dream(in chapter 90) is almost phrased in a way that makes it seem like it should be put away to deal with the real issue at stake.

But in other places the story seems to praise these dreams and ideals as things as noble as the freedom of humanity, Armin, Hange and Erwin all share very similar ideals, it's even called "The Survey Corps Way"

So my dilemma is basically about the main ideological thrust of the SC. Is the "unyielding desire for understanding" what lies at the root of the SC, or is it dedicating your heart to the common good of humanity? Should you give up on truth for the greater good, or are both of these ideals intertwined in some way? Is the desire for truth just another personal wish to be given up and passed on or is it instrumental to the essence of the Corps?

Hello!!!

Thank you so much for the ask and for reading the posts! I also have read some of yours a while ago, I find your perspectives also really interesting!!

Your points are pertinent, and though it might not be exactly an endgame answer I'll write, I think this will open a path to a deeper dive into the topic! (And sorry for the lateness!)

About Dreams:

What you said about dreams in snk is really true! 

If we can try a broader perspective, though, I think we can also take that rather than trying to establish that personal dreams are negative or positive and you have to give up on them for the collective, SNK seems to be trying to show how dreams move people forward. What compromises them is what people are capable of doing to realize them. (And not always the wish of the collective is right...)

This is something that changes the perception a bit. For example, let's pick Erwin, Zackley, Armin, and Eren.

Erwin's personal dream wasn't bad or negative in nature, and the manga doesn't show it like that either. 

I know sometimes this passage being referred to how people would react knowing Erwin's dream would be the most horrible thing that could happen to his reputation, but the thing is - it's not. 

The proof is in chapter 85, where Nile (Commander of the Military Police) tells Erwin's full dream to Zackly (Commander in chief aka "Mr. President of Paradis"), and Pixis (Commander of the Garrison) and other military people. Rather than reacting horrified or disgusted at Erwin's dream, or regarding it as childish, they all show high respect to it. Zackley himself (who thought Erwin was like him) tells Pixis (who thought Erwin was like Zackley) and Nile that he should apologize to Erwin. Also, Nile has his face on the floor (ashamed). And to complete, Pixis calls Erwin a hero. So nope, the manga doesn't seem to be throwing much shade over Erwin's dream as a great deal seem to do...

I also particularly haven't seen anything bad in the nature of Erwin's dream. To prove how the world worked, how they lived under a manipulative government, how innocent people were killed for the sake of a lie that trapped people into a dangerous reality - how this is bad, negative, or to be seen as something full of depreciation? How can this be something horrible to the SC or humanity?

However, the problem that Erwin's dream had was that in order to achieve it, Erwin had to do a lot of gambles and took high risks that involved many people dying - and most of time without providing an "immediate meaning". And the lack of answers as well as the growing amount of sacrifices was beginning to make Erwin himself start to doubt himself as to what he was trying to accomplish for real (humanity’s freedom or his childhood dream), and later how far he was going to prove his dream.

When we get the context of their reality, if anything, if Erwin didn't have such drive to unveil the truth of the World (and saving the Survey Corps from being shut down forever), Levi would have died stuck in the Underground (or at the bottom of the well helpless), the Survey Corps would have shut in Keith's times, and Paradis would have perished with the Warriors invasions. But to Erwin - who realized he was not simply as devoted to Humanity’s freedom in a 100% selfless way as he thought he was - when he faced the people he had sworn to save reacting with such uncertainties, fear, and at a loss with the revelations and events of the Coup (Uprising Arc), there wasn’t guarantees that what he was doing was really going to result in anything ultimately salvific for everyone.

Erwin already felt responsible for all soldiers that were dying under his command while they were fighting to retake Wall Maria. But it certainly worsened after each new mission where people died to rescue Eren or take the other shifters. Eren had the key to solve what Erwin was looking for without barely any clear clue before, and Erwin wouldn't lose it. Then, with the coup, he began to wonder if it was really worth risking their world stability just to prove his father was right.

That's where Erwin stands when talking with Zackley in the carriage. Rather than wondering if how they lived was right or wrong at its roots, Erwin is worried about how everything can actually crumble once and for all. After all, the power of the Titans was a mystery to them, but he knew it was powerful and frightening - there were Shifters, there were Pure Titans, their primal defense against ultimate death was 03 huge Walls made of Colossal Titans, and there was the chance of the Titan power being capable of erasing and rewriting memories. So what would happen to everyone when Erwin finally made his dream come true? And that's when Zackley, much like Ksaver to Zeke, infects Erwin with a dangerous idea that was already sipping through the dam in his mind...

In chapter 62, Zackley insinuates to Erwin that he doesn't care about what he thinks he cares (humanity’s future), but rather that they're the same - satisfying their own dreams/wishes/will regardless of others. And Zackly says this because he had his dream of seeing the buffoons of the Monarchy being dethroned. He wanted to see them go down, what for the story and humanity was something good. But differently from Erwin, Zackley wanted to see them humiliated, put to ultimate shame. All because he never liked the pompous bastards...

So, while it was thanks to wanting to realize his life dream that Zackley helped Erwin to make the coup happen, Zackley wanted more. And this is where the talk about Pixis and Zackley about people being disgusted over the military is 100% for real - Zackley's dream to see those monarch men utterly humiliated gave birth to a monstrosity. He created the horrifying shit-feeding machine, put into action, and wanted to open an exposition so people could see it too. This is so sickly twisted that Zackley terrifies and disgust me in ways I can't describe. And, for thinking Erwin was somehow more preoccupied with saving himself than survivors/humanity, and more aligned with Zackley's selfish mentality, Pixis reprimanded Erwin in chapter 63. 

That's why they talk about apologizing to Erwin in chapter 85. They're wrong about him. Yet, they all had already planted and watered the seeds of doubt and shame in Erwin...

Thanks to Levi, though, Erwin got over it. And, as Yams said that when facing death people reveal their true nature, Erwin proved his battle was for humanity. It was never to simply satisfy himself. And when needed, when his dream diverged from the responsibility needed to save humanity, Erwin chose to do what was right. (And that's why this man is on my top fav characters!

Now, Armin's dream.

His dream is one of the nicest and most pure dreams in the story. It's a dream born out of curiosity, of simply humanity, free of traumas and looking hopefully at the future. And imo, it's not a childish dream either because it was rooted in significant information provided by a forbidden book, with descriptive images giving more solid clues that those things could actually be true. So, again, contrary to the "over idealistic" idea people believe Armin had, his dream is actually based on scientific evidence. All they needed was to be seen to be proved true (or false) - which demanded not be bound to the simple reality they lived in. And, as Armin said in chapter 72, they should start with seeing the ocean, and the things that lived there.

His dream is in fact so moving and hopeful that even Levi - who lived afraid of forming close relationships for fear of losing people and hesitates in harboring much hope for the better - is shown soft and touched by the enthusiasm in Armin like we have never seen Levi look in the manga. 

This moment was so precious for Levi as much as it was for Armin, imo. More so because it's one of the reasons Levi stares at the eyes of the present-future and sees the beauty of freedom there. A type of freedom close to what he sees in Kenny when he gave up his dream, and then when Erwin gave up his doubts over what to do, over what kind of man he was, and accepted he was doing the right thing even if it was costing his life and dream.

Armin wasn't a slave to his dream - the dream had set him free...

And Armin's dream is a beautiful inquisitive mind preparing to become a pathfinder - and his heart is unchained and at ease, contrary to the other two. So I fail again to see the negativity in this type of dream itself for someone having to give up for the greater good. Which brings us again to the problem being what people would be capable of doing to realize their dreams.

Involuntary, Armin had to shoulder the responsibility of eating a once friend, becoming a Titan, and being chosen to be saved over the life of Humanity’s Hero, Commander Erwin Smith. He never asked for this, but now he had to carry it. Armin - the kid who had extreme self-loathe and insecurity - knew he could never replace Erwin, but now he will have to do the impossible to pay back the responsibility placed upon him. Still, Armin didn't give in to despair - but adapted to it, slowly and as best he could. Or at least tried it...

Later, just as he said, Armin began fulfilling his dream with Eren (and his friends) when they reached the ocean. He knows he is going to die in 13 years. He knows Titans are made by people on the other side of the ocean. He knows the 2nd round of their battle is just starting. Yet, Armin is still advancing with hope. 

When they crossed the ocean for the first time, though the world wasn't exactly as Armin expected, he still wasn't dejected or disillusioned (like Eren). He, like Erwin, held back the full completion of his dream momentarily so as to do what was right and more urgent at the moment. He took the responsibility of the present so as to try ensuring there would actually be a future. 

But reality struck him mercilessly. To survive, to have a chance with his friends and his people's future, Armin was forced to do terrible things. He crossed the beautiful blue ocean of the start of his dream to turn it into a dark sea of scarlet blood on the opposite shore, in Marley; he killed countless of innocent people for the greater good; he killed some friends and compatriots who were so scared of being exterminated and die that they miserably sided with the despicable idea that genocide was going to save them. 

Then, the final trial came for him: Armin had to kill his best friend, his family, because Eren was deliberately mass-murdering and destroying the planet. He had to give up on the brother he got gifted from life, who always came to his rescue whenever he was in trouble no matter what - from boys doing bullying, to the mouth of a Titan eating him, to cannonballs, to Trost’s gate rupture, to hordes of Titan about to kill him again, to Reiss Titan, to Levi wanting to save Erwin over him… Armin had to give up the hope of saving half of him. 

The thing Armin dreamed the most was to one day see the outside world starting by all the wonders in the book (and fulfill the promise with Eren they would do it together too), and reality forced him to choose between watching 99% of the world die under a (false) premise of security for his motherland and the responsibility of saving the world by killing his chosen brother because Eren wouldn't stop and listen. Reality in snk was a fucking bit*ch, and I hate it so much…

Now Eren… is complicated. 

Imo, he is the one who gets closer to having a dream truly negative in at least 90% by its nature because he couldn't see the right time to get a hold of himself and give up, costing 80% of humanity. But it apparently seems that if he hadn't done what he did, Ymir would be a slave forever in Path because seeing Mikasa kill her monstrous lover was what made her free. Eren was the most difficult contradiction (and I still don't have my thoughts over this whole triangle of them…).

However, we know he wanted with his dying breath to wipe out "every last one of those animals of the face of the Earth", aka the Titans. However, Eren seems to have been dreaming of being the one accomplishing whatever he himself ever wanted rather than just exterminate the Titans. 

Like, Eren didn't dream of seeing the wonders Armin showed him in his forbidden book - it seems more like he just wanted to feel the sensation of being the one doing it, as if being capable of doing it proved he was living "without borders". Since Carla's death, he wanted to stop feeling powerless and weak, and for this he embraced the power of the creature he hated the most as his power without batting an eye. Yet, even having a power rare people had, Eren failed so many times, and hundreds of people died just to save him. He was over and over reminded of his weakness, and he loathed that. In the Uprising Arc, when he realized he wasn't "special", and the responsibility of his and his father's actions were dawning on him, Eren wanted to die. 

Then, when he discovered that the world wasn't the way he wanted, Eren looked even more compelled to move forward with his destructive plan. And when he got the God-like powers who gave him the power to finally be capable of doing anything he wanted, Eren proved that he was indeed the last person on Earth that should be entitled with such power. Imo, chapter 131 is one of the most stunning for his character, and I can't explain how unnerving and incredible I think it's how Eren could show such expressions of delight while a massacre was going right under his foot. I can’t wait to see it animated…

So, that's my take about personal dreams in snk: they're not inherently negative most of the time. However, there are times that the dreamer is forced to face harsh events of reality to achieve it - or they just get the luck to be graced with an opportunity to fulfill it -, and what they do in those circumstances is what consolidates their nature. 

Not giving up on them, but adjusting them to reality through thick and thin is a quality that shows perseverance and can be very fortunate to change reality to a better outcome. But other times, it's best to give up. Erwin died with the military knowing his personal dream and also because of it calling him a hero, while Eren died known for most people as a mass murderer and a devil for the world, a savior-transgressor friend for his friends that were free from the Titans, and as a martyr for Yeagerists. Such is the complexity of living in the human world and our variable nature.

As for the "greater good" or freedom of humanity dream, Yams also threw some shade over these ideas too. Like, in chapter 128 is one of them - when Yelena shows how bloody, violent, and at the cost of innocent enemy lives a "save the world" idea can lead to. Sometimes people can fall short in a sea of corpses and deluded driving by this idea when it's overly romanticized, idealistic. Sometimes to free humanity looks heroic, but in fact to reach it, the path is paved in a lot of non heroic actions. "Life sacrifices" are said to be needed - but if each person is special in it's own because they're born into this world, then what gives us the right to judge whose lives have to be sacrificed? 

We have to watch out for our purposes constantly, and be grounded to the facts of reality when dealing with people's lives.

About the Survey Corps

Is the "unyielding desire for understanding" what lies at the root of the SC, or is it dedicating your heart to the common good of humanity? Should you give up on truth for the greater good, or are both of these ideals intertwined in some way? Is the desire for truth just another personal wish to be given up and passed on or is it instrumental to the essence of the Corps?

In advance, I would say they're somewhat intertwined, but maybe the desire for change is what lies at the root of the Survey Corps together with dedicating the heart for the greater good. 

Because the "unyielding desire for understanding" is the best quality for a Survey Corps Commander, rather than all the members of the SC members. As we know, not everyone feels moved by the deep desire to know more about the world as the main reason why they support, join and stay in the Survey Corps. Some joined for the dissatisfaction of their current way of living, some wanted to make a name, some wanted to destroy every Titan, some just wanted to protect their families, and so on...

Something that is also interesting is that Hanji says in her close up interview that the Survey Corps isn't Killer Corps, but Survey. They're not made to exterminate the Titans, but their main goal is to understand the truth of the World and explore what is unknown to give humanity freedom. Freedom that was primarily to “seek for” ways to expand the scope of human activities. 

However, to accomplish whatever they wanted to change, they had to be ready to dedicate themselves to the cause. And in the face of death, they would entrust their surviving comrades to make their sacrifices and hopes one day pay off. 

So in the end, it's the balance of all things considered that could in fact provide the necessary forces to move the Survey Corps (and humanity) forward.

Shingeki no Kyojin: The Final Season Part 2 Official Trailer

Commission for @neezuko - A fanart Eren and Historia .

“They were just there wherever I looked from the day I was born. Those miserable walls.”

I think this is the most important line we need for understanding Eren. From the moment he was born Eren felt caged no matter what he did and he longed for release.

This desire was unconscious at first, but seeing Armin dream so passionately brought about the realization that Armin was seeing and believing in something that Eren couldn’t, and this brings about the realization in him that he’s restrained/caged from doing something.

He initially believes that this indignation from a sense of being caged is because of the Titans or oppressors but as time goes on and the circumstances change, Eren realises that this is something internal and the fact that it’s something that no one else experiences is one of the sources of his tragedy: he can’t communicate/share this desire.

(There’s probably some symbolism in the fact that Eren confessed his truest desires to a child that didn’t speak the same language)

At first, Eren associated release with the “sight” of the things in Armin’s book. He believed that seeing those things will give him the release and liberty he’s been longing for, though it should be noted that Eren says he doesn’t care what the particular sights *are* just that he sees them so I think he cares much more about the feeling of liberation that those things stand for than the sights themselves.

So I think that even though Eren might say that he’s disappointed that the world wasn’t what was in Armin’s book I think what he’s really sad about is that he didn’t feel liberated by the world beyond the walls, but because he associated those feelings with the sights in Armin’s book he uses them interchangeably(I think this is supported by the fact that Eren still feels caged and empty when actually seeing those sights in 139).

The reason Eren slaughters humanity beyond the walls is because from his perspective, *they* are walls/barriers obstructing his freedom. “That Scenery” is one of the most important motifs with Eren, it’s the liberty that comes with transcending or breaking a wall, but one of the ironies in 131 is that Eren is deluding himself to think that it’s freedom. Eren’s very nature demands that he cannot see beyond the “walls” and this is testified to by Eren looking unfulfilled immediately after the freedom panel and the fact that he still needs Armin’s approval. Besides Isayama deliberately contrasts Eren and Armin by saying that Armin still believes in a world beyond the walls, with a panel of Eren’s eyes closed.

Eren’s tragedy is that of a man born with the inability to look past the repression of life(or you could say he was born with the ability to see restraints everywhere). I think this solves all the contradictions I thought I saw in Eren’s character and addresses the “Problem of being a Slave” that Isayama once brought up.

Before I go there’s one last thing I have to say about the final chapter and this motif, Eren can’t see the dream Armin enjoys and he can’t see the future that lies ahead, but his love for his friend(s) let’s him transcend that nature by putting his hopes in them at the end. He won’t ever be able to see beyond the walls, that’s just how he is, but he can be at peace with the fact that his friends will.

Edit: I made this post mainly because I was tired of people rooting Eren’s actions in trauma or an ideological mistake or lack of development. Eren has developed enough as a protagonist, especially by chapter 100, his “mistakes” in the Final Arc are a result of his nature, I think that’s what Isayama wanted to convey.

Alright this is quite late, but I think the question was referring more to the nature of the freedom Eren seeks than the root of the desire. We know he wipes out the rest of the world for "freedom" but is it freedom in the sense that the world is hostile and he's trying to preserve himself through aggression or is it because the mere existence of humans "taints" the pure scenery he saw in Armin's book and imagined as freedom.

Of course, it could be more nuanced than that, but the words Eren says seem to give credence to the latter interpretation though it doesn't sit well with me.

What is your genuine interpretation of the type of freedom that Eren desires? Does he desire freedom because he was born into this world, or is it because of Armin’s book? 131 seems to establish that it was because of the book, but the paths chapters focus on Eren’s philosophy of “being born into this world.” Which do you believe he valued more?

Both. Eren is implied to have had a subconscious reaction to his father's sentiment at his birth, but it was only brought into consciousness when Armin showed him the book. That's why Eren was so listless beforehand: his primal life-urge was going unrecognised and unsatisfied.

There's also the factors of the Founding and Attack Titans working outside of time. Eren's future personality likely influenced his infant self, as well as the nature of the Attack Titan to always strive for freedom.

In my end is my beginning.

T.S. Eliot, from Four Quartets; East Coker. (via xshayarsha)

UwU,, now I want to play otome game for AOT…..

I think this is all quite valid, but I'm quite sure Isayama intended to portray Eren as something "inhuman."

There's the scene in Marley were he speculates that he was born like this.

There's the scene in 121 where he also claims to have been like this since birth.

There's the constant narrative of this being set in stone(Eren's birth is even juxtaposed with "it doesn't matter where" and his child self with "maybe all of this was set in stone from the start"), and even when Eren reflects on why he wanted to do this in 139 there's a shot of him just being born.

There's also the fact that Yams has explicitly addressed the theme of the "innate perpetrator" in two of his interviews as essential to the ending. One in 2017 where he says this:

Ultimately, I don’t think the series passes judgment on what is “right” or “wrong.” For example, when I read Furuya Minoru’s “Himeanole,” I knew society would consider the serial killer in the story unforgivable under social norms. But when I took into account his life and background I still wondered, “If this was his nature, then who is to blame…?” I even thought, “Is it merely coincidence that I wasn’t born as a murderer?” We justify what we absolutely cannot accomplish as “a flaw due to lack of effort,” and there is bitterness within that. On the other hand, for a perpetrator, having the mindset of “It’s not because I lack effort that I became like this” is a form of solace. We cannot deny that under such circumstances, the victims’ feelings are very important. But considering the root of the issue, rather than evaluating “what is right”…to be influenced by various other works and their philosophies, and to truthfully illustrate my exact feelings during those moments - I think that’s what Shingeki no Kyojin’s ending will resemble.

And the other with Arakawa where he draws a connection between his self expression through destruction/"turning things upside down" with the ending and the work of Minoru Furuya(the artist from whom he got the "innate aggressor" theme).

Do you think Eren was forced to do the rumbling because he felt he had no choice? A lot of people are saying that Eren felt compelled to do the rumbling because it was the only way to save paradis. And that sounds wrong to me. He started the war and people don't care about that. A lot of people are mad when we criticise the rumbling or Eren's actions or if we even dare to imply that he did it for selfish purposes. They say that there was no chance for diplomacy at all. What do you think of this?

Hi!

I think that Eren did the rumbling because this was the conclusion that he wanted: to put an end to the Titan curse. I believe that there would have been other ways to save Paradis if that was what Eren wanted, however, those conclusions would not have led to the eradication of the Titans.

The weird complicated part and what I think Isayama was going for, is the kind of time travel that I believe he enacted [wiki]:

The Novikov self-consistency principle, named after Igor Dmitrievich Novikov, states that any actions taken by a time traveler or by an object that travels back in time were part of history all along, and therefore it is impossible for the time traveler to "change" history in any way. The time traveler's actions may be the cause of events in their own past though, which leads to the potential for circular causation, sometimes called a predestination paradox,[81] ontological paradox,[82] or bootstrap paradox.[82][83]

and the so-called time loop is a causal loop [wiki]:

A causal loop is a theoretical proposition in which, by means of either retrocausality or time travel, a sequence of events (actions, information, objects, people)[1][2] is among the causes of another event, which is in turn among the causes of the first-mentioned event.[3][4] Such causally looped events then exist in spacetime, but their origin cannot be determined.

Which means events became fixed and he didn't have a choice because of the decision that he at some point had made. But we are given a glimpse that even if he didn't have a choice, it was still as what he wanted, as per his thoughts in chapter 130.

I'm sorry it is very confusing XS

Was it for selfish purposes? I think that it was a mixture of both, selfish in the sense that he wanted to achieve his own personal aim, but he did still want to achieve freedom for Paradis, by destroying all of their enemies. As with the whole story, it's complicated and not so easy to paint a singular "good/bad" stripe on anything, let alone Eren, which I also believe is the whole point. Plus the fact that I'd said that he believed that he had made the wrong decision in relying on his comrades during the first mission to capture the Female Titan which I believe also led to him choosing to go it alone, which does seem to vaguely imply that there might have been a chance for a different solution if he had brought his friends on board.

I'm going to bring back my thoughts at the ending, because I don't feel like there's been any change in my thinking since then.

I’m going to admit that the reason the ending worked for me is precisely because Eren was shown to have only 2 braincells and failed to use them. He claimed that he loved his friends, but failed to bring them into his decision making and decided to go gungho and do it all by himself. He claimed that they were free to act but his decision in fact took away that freedom from them and forced them down the path he set out for them. He did it this way because he was bull-headed Eren always charging ahead leaving his friends behind. The power of friendship didn’t fix anything either. I feel a sense that there might actually have been a better way, if he wasn’t the way he is. It is a tragedy.

So I do believe that rather than that there was no chance for diplomacy, that diplomacy wasn't given a chance at all, at least not until Eren had achieved his main aim, leaving his friends to clean up the mess.

Thank you for your ask! :)

TG:re Volume 5 Extra Translation

※

Like mortar in a mixer Three heads, melted thickly

Miracles have been used up long ago and lie cold on the concrete

Killed I killed Have I killed?

I was losing my grasp on reality, when the eyes of the heads opened wetly like genitals, to say hello

The heads whispered in Mother’s voice

“you” “you” “you”

“you” “how did you fool yourself into thinking you would be loved” “when you’re so ugly”

“uoh……..”

Gentle abuse, repeated over and over in “that box” The sky flickers, like traffic lights

Before I knew it, nine thorns sprang out from the chest cavity The diaphragm shivered, as if about to cry

(my body!)

I finally lost my grasp on reality, and I started climbing the steel tower The handrails I touched all turned black and rusted.

(I knew I was made of poison!) (No, it was that woman who was poison itself)

(climb, climb)

(not enough to die) (to a higher place, higher place, climb!)

※

The intestines of the dead, reaches out to the heavens from the tip of the steel tower.

The intestines were knotted together like rope. I desperately pulled the rope in.

squelch, squelch, squelch

The knot had grown long enough to reach the sun.

Tower of beloved corpses. With each pull I reach the peak, and the height increases. I cannot see the ground anymore.

The tower starts to shake widely, whispering in Mother’s voice.

“automatic failure at happiness, shapeless spawn”

(ahh)

“My dear lost one”

“Your parents failed in raising you”

And I died.

Image Source: Baidu

Major thanks to @makyun for helping me translate!