I Hope You'll Be Able To Post! I'd Love To Hear Your Thoughts!

maybe it's time for Thomas to stop ‘waiting for Alastair to look back’ and start going after him

it’s wilfred owen’s 131st birthday today and idk about you but it’s really important to me in particular

I completely forgot the line you mentioned about Andrew’s mind being where it should have been, but your comments about it are spot on! Andrew is too saddened by Laurie leaving, and then too distracted by refusing his demands, that he cannot think enough to come up with a way to comfort Charlot, his actual charge. It really makes the whole thing 10x sadder. I'm definitely gonna have to go back and reread that scene now, just to get a clearer sense of it all!

Re: 'the loss of that relationship feels real to me' I think is because it is a real loss. Laurie loved Andrew, and always felt their relationship to be real even when Ralph didn't, but by the end he can never see him again. It's heartbreaking.

Actually, both times I read the book, I came away happy for Laurie but also very sad and I think his relationship with Andrew (and Andrew's whole storyline) is the reason why. If you think about it, at the end of the book, Laurie is put in the exact same position Ralph was all those years ago at school: here is someone who adores him, and who refuses to believe that he's done what he's been accused of simply because he cannot fathom that he'd do it. And what does Laurie do? Exactly what Ralph did: he tells the truth, gives Andrew the Phaedrus and goes away. But what will happen to Andrew after this? We don't know and neither does Laurie. He may die in the next 5 years, but even if he doesn't, it seems hopelessly optimistic to envision a similar happy ending to Laurie's for him.

Propaganda for Andrew's moral code....

Time for a bit of Andrew love I think.

@telltaleangelina I loved your post about Ralph/Laurie’s philosophy of life compared with Andrew’s, which so resonated with me - they have a kind of heroic idealism which is very attractive, and apart from anything else it supplies most of the drama and action of the book!

But it also made me want to think more about Andrew and his motivations. So, inspired by the 'Hot Austen men' polls, here is some propaganda for Andrew. At fifteen he had to decide whether to throw in his lot with the military side of his family or the pacifist one, and it is made clear he took this decision seriously:

“I thought all around it. I thought there might conceivably even be some circumstances when I felt it was right to kill. If I knew whom I was killing and the circumstance and the nature of the responsibility. What I finally stuck at was surrendering my moral choice to men I'd never met, about whose moral standards I knew nothing whatever."

He becomes a CO not to abrogate moral responsibility but so that he can take responsibility for his actions.  Later he and Laurie have this exchange:

“One has to draw the line where one sees it oneself."

"Is that what you call the inner light?"

"If you like, yes."

So the thing that strikes me about the Charlot incident is that his principled stance is not blind faith or rigidity of thought. His main regret is that fighting with Laurie prevented him finding a solution to the problem.  He says:

“If I ... if my mind had been where it should have been, I'd have known what ought to be done, something would have come to me."

Laurie says:

"I do this kind of thing. I get steamed up about things that happen to people till I've got to do something or burst, and if it turns out to do more harm than good, hell, what's the odds, it did good to me. At school for instance. A man -- one of the boys I mean, was going to be sacked, and because I liked him I took for granted he couldn't have done it, and I was all set to have raised hell and involved a lot of other people. And all the time he'd done it after all."

Laurie admits that actually it feels good to ‘do’ something, even if the other person doesn't want it. It is easy to see that both of them have a valid point when it comes to the practicalities.  But for me, the point is that as long as they are trying to impose their will on each other, and operating from a place of ego, there is no possibility of finding another solution.  There are a hundred things they could have done to ease Charlot’s last moments if they had stopped thinking about themselves for one moment.  I think it's interesting for example that Laurie is the only person Charlot still recognises but he wants to 'outsource' comfort to someone else.

And then I realised that when Laurie is referring back to his 16 year old self getting 'steamed up' it is Ralph who points out to him that however much he might ‘want’ to ‘do’ something, it will be hurting other innocent people such as his own family (and very likely including Ralph himself).

Often, Laurie is annoyed at Ralph's inability to stand by.  The bit on the stairs at the party, for instance, and the bit where he tells Ralph "You can't eat and breathe for me, or live for me. No one can."  Pretty strong stuff to say to the man you just made passionate love to a moment ago! And let's not forget the comment about the drunk trying to mend the watch.

Sometimes I think the really sad thing is that Laurie is locked in to a different system of morality (The Phaedrus), one which means he is Andrew’s mentor and protector and Andrew is the innocent and therefore had no real moral agency. I'm not sure that means he could have or should have been with Andrew as a romantic partner, but the loss of that relationship feels real to me.

And finally....I think you have made me understand something that has always puzzled/amused me a little bit about the arguments that Laurie/Ralph have. He uses all those military analogies that seem to suggest that even while he sees that Ralph is trying to dominate him and battles with it, he is also, kind of, comfortable with it. And maybe it is that he sees himself in Ralph, he completely understands why Ralph is behaving the way he does. I always find that so touching (a little bit funny too, especially the captain shouting 'fire'!)

Eugene de Blaas 👒🍋

There's absolutely no way James will die, simply because of the fact that Jace has the same birthmark that stretches back to Will. The only option that could allow for James to die and also for the birthmark to reach Jace would be if Tessa and Will had a third son, which is impossible to insert into the story at this point because we have seen Tessa in the modern day and heard many references to her and Will's children - - they only had two, never was another one mentioned. It also can't happen that James dies and then another child is adopted into the family and takes the Herondale name because that would logically mean that this adopted child did not inherit the birthmark and therefore neither did any of his descendants, including Jace. This would be a plot hole, considering that it's known for a fact that Jace has this birthmark and it was this birthmark that saved Jace's life and allowed Imogen Herondale to realize he was her grandson.

The lightwood family- Gideon and Sophie, Eugenia, Barbara and Thomas. 

Characters by @cassandraclare

Do you guys see the resemblance? 

i agree the dave thing is so funny, especially when laurie gets distracted from Andrew’s story about his awful depressing childhood to be jealous about dave’s entire existence, and then has to spend a few mins convincing andrew he’s still interested in his story and it’s not boring 😭 that bit kills me, i don’t know why some people say Mary isn’t a funny writer! but my personal interpretation, mostly based on the end conversation with dave, is that he must give off ~vibes~, just based on when dave says “i think you’ve misunderstood things between andrew and I” and then couple that with him being in love with bertie. and we do know that laurie can pick up on vibes, because he’s actually pretty good at picking up on andrew.

I think Laurie is generally hilarious, at times intentionally, at others not! There are lots of scenes I remember laughing at as I want along 😭

I do think you're right about vibes and about them being important, and of course Laurie is good at picking them up, kind of because he has to be. Honestly, I think most characters in this book have to be vibe-masters 😭 that's what I feel like many of the conversations with meeting new characters is like: simply vibe-checks 😭 That being said, I did really like the explanation regarding some weird-misplaced idea of influence that Laurie puts on Andrew, because in the scene that makes me laugh and another before it, Andrew actually does establish that Dave influences him, the only problem is that Laurie assumes there must be something romantic behind it. Those are the vibes he was getting, and you're right, he could've just picked up on Dave and connected dots, but I think there's more to it than that. The next few scenes after this one (the hilarious Reg-seduction scene and also tea with Adrian) kind of offer some more interesting insight; in both scenes, the idea of influence is referred to and explored, with Andrew being the center of it in the former. It seems even Reg has an idea that Andrew ought to be 'positively influenced'

I don't know 😭 I have this theory developing in my head, but I don't know if it's wrong because I haven't finished the rest of the book. And this book specifically is so cool because every time you think you understand a part of it, something else happens and you have to go back and recontextualize everything 😭 regardless, thank you for sharing your interpretation with me! It really makes me think about everything I've already read, and try to see what I could've missed and need to think more about.

I completely forgot about the scene where Laurie seems pleased to be perceived as older! And while I was reading, I never even thought of the idea of molding, or Laurie thinking it's possible or trying to do it 😭 When I read Charlot's scene, I took is as the moment when Laurie finally has to confront the reality of who Andrew is and how different they really are...I will definitely be reading that scene more closely now that you mention it here!

You're definitely right that Laurie should've seen it coming with Charlot 😭 it's not as if Andrew hadn't told him who he is, but I don't think he ever had to really confront it until then. It's one thing to hear about the spine of steel, but another thing completely to rush into it headfirst at 80 miles per hour 😭

I don't understand why Laurie immediately interprets the relationship between Andrew and Dave as anything other than father/child or even just uncle/nephew. I'm rereading chapter 5, where Andrew is telling him all about his father's death and despite the fact that he clearly explains Dave is old enough to have known both his parents, Laurie is insanely jealous of Dave and thinks the whole situation gives him a 'headstart'... why?

I'm trying to think through the rest of what I know happens in the book, and the only other scene I can connect it with is the one where Laurie's sitting with Mervyn and thinks suddenly about how Sandy's friends could misinterpret the situation if they walk by. I don't know if there's supposed to be a connection or anything, but I really do not understand the vibes Laurie is getting at all 😭

james is actually just gonna wander around with Cordelia's glove and mourn over it for at least 1/3 of chain of thorns lol 😭