Okay Wait I Saw A Comment On The Patch 8 Animation Pointing Out The Knockoff Sleep Token Poster In Astarion's

I don't need drugs, I've got: character whose arc is about reclaiming their identity and autonomy and healing and ending the cycle of violence and learning to be loved

All the music that plays during character creation just unlocks a part of my soul I can't describe. It's beautiful and I'd like to live in that feeling, please.

[From the game's datamined dialogues]

Astarion says those lines when he helps your fallen character in battle (romanced and/or friend depending on the lines).

He may be half-joking here, or maybe not at all, but in any case, I find it interesting that he already calls himself a hero and saviour (even ironically) when he helps you. And it made me think a lot. (And maybe I'm overthinking all this but eh... the brain-rot is real).

Because, beyond the possible irony of those "hero/saviour” labels, it says something about the image he has of himself while your adventures unfolds.

During the Tieflings' party, he's quite loud about not enjoying being a hero. He wasn't particularly fond of the idea of saving the Grove in the first place anyway.

Same with the Gnomes in the forge, saving them isn't his priority, to say the least.

After all, why would he play the hero when no one, in 200 years, has ever even tried to save him. Neither heroes, nor gods.

So I was thinking about how Astarion came to realise that not only you care about him, but that he too cares enough about you to want to help/save you.

Does you adventures together slowly make him understand that he can save you, as much as you can save him?

After all, quite early in Act 1, you can tell him that you agree to watch each other's back.

And he approves.

I want to believe that this "deal" is the first step toward his acknowledgement: he can protect and get some protection. It starts as a kind of transaction, but gradually, it's not about mutual benefice anymore. After a while, he wants to help/protect, as much as you want to help/protect him, as friend or a lover.

And of course, it paves the way to the epilogue (spawn Astarion, not romanced). 

And it's beautiful.

He made it all the way from resenting heroes for not saving him, to becoming a hero himself - the kind of hero he decides to be.

And I am wondering... the fact that he can protect you, did it affect his own self-esteem? making him realise his own worth? As a fighter, but also as friend or a lover, as someone one can rely on...

Did it make him realise that he too can become his own hero, his own saviour?

That without Cazador's power over his body, he has everything in him to save himself?

fanfic writing culture isn’t “oh dang! I wanted to write about this prompt with this character but someone else already wrote it, so now I can’t”.

fanfic writing culture is always “two cakes is better than one. the more the merrier. there can ever be enough fics of this character with this prompt!”

Since I joined the fandom, I’ve been told, repeatedly, that Astarion was evil in the past, evil when you meet him, and will be evil at the end of the game—whether he remains a vampire spawn or not. No good ending, no redemption for him; because it’s not like he suddenly becomes a saint!

Essentially, he’s talked about as if he were a monolith. Static. Unmoving. Frozen in place.

Well, at this point, I feel the need to say how I see it.

First of all, the concept of the corrupt magistrate is outdated—it doesn’t exist in the game. Maybe it was an early draft of his background that was later scrapped. But in the actual game, there’s no mention of it—no character, no note, no book, not a single thing that references this.

And given how important that detail would be for his characterization, I don’t see why Larian wouldn’t have included it, even as an offhand remark.

What we do know about Astarion before becoming Cazador’s vampire spawn is that he was a magistrate, and that the Gur beat him to death over a law he had passed against them. That’s it.

Personally, I think this ties into his previous position of privilege, prejudice, and the fact that he was likely a tedious, meticulous, and inflexible magistrate—but ultimately, that’s just my own inference based on scattered dialogues.

The truth is, the Gur could have been wrong.

We’ll never know!

Just like we’ll never know what color his gorgeous eyes were before they turned red.

Now, I’m going to shift to a slightly more technical perspective—but I promise I won’t go overboard!

The Astarion from Act 1 cannot be the same Astarion at the end of the game, regardless of whether he ascends or not.

And here’s why.

In basic screenwriting, we talk about a character’s transformation arc. If there is no change, there is simply no story—because the character would be nothing more than a rubber figure on whom events, decisions, and other characters bounce off without leaving a trace. It wouldn’t be engaging, nor would the character have any real drive to act.

This is a vast topic that I won’t go into in detail, but if you’re interested, just type character arc into a search engine, and you’ll find a whole world of information.

Do you think stories and characters are written purely by feeling? There are countless manuals that explain the rules of good storytelling. (Dara Marks, considered the best American story editor, formulated the rules outlined in her renowned manual, Inside Story: The Power of the Transformational Arc.)

And characters follow writing principles—Astarion included. And creating a believable character while following these rules is really complicated—so every time someone says that Astarion is a monolith, somewhere, a screenwriter dies.

It’s just not possible, folks—there’s no chance that Astarion stays exactly the same throughout the entire story. He has to grow. Or regress.

Either way, he cannot remain unchanged; otherwise, The Pale Elf narrative arc wouldn’t exist.

It’s the fundamental rule of storytelling—straight from the rulebook.

Now, let’s clarify the concept of redemption a bit.

In religion, redemption is the forgiveness or absolution of sins and protection from damnation and misfortune, whether eternal or temporary. The Catholic Act of Contrition is a profound and meaningful prayer, considered the first step toward redemption. It allows believers to express their repentance and willingness to change after committing a sin.

From here, the term has come to be used in a more general sense to refer to the attainment of physical or moral freedom through liberation from guilt and sources of unhappiness.

In a literal sense, however, redemption means salvation, remedy, or escape.

So, yes, the vampire spawn ending is a redemption arc—not because Astarion suddenly becomes a saint, for god’s sake, but because he faces his past, everything he has done up until that moment and the people he has harmed, and does so as a hero, sacrificing himself for the greater good.

(Yes, one could debate whether releasing 7,000 starving vampire spawn into the world is truly the greater good, but within the context of the game, its setting, and Astarion’s narrative arc, it is.

Wyll—the group's hero and a monster hunter—explicitly says, "They are victims just like you, Astarion. They deserve freedom too."

Many of the good-aligned companions also disapprove of their extermination, and depending on their oath, even a Paladin Tav/Durge can break their vow and become an oathbreaker if they choose to kill them all.

So, the game itself strongly suggests that freeing them is the most humane and morally right choice—especially for Astarion.)

So, to summarize, it is a redemption arc because Astarion takes responsibility and atones for his actions, for his sins. He acknowledges the harm he has caused and repents, embraces the pain of others beyond his own, and gives them the freedom that he himself had once taken from them.

That’s what redemption means, not that he becomes a saint by the end of the game.

Not only that, but Astarion also makes peace with the Gur, who will stop hunting him—not out of laziness, but because he has proven that he has changed, that he has grown, and that he is no longer a threat to innocent people. (And they also accept the release of the spawn, despite being monster hunters—take note!)

It’s no coincidence that Astarion tells his brothers and sisters that they can choose between being parasites hiding in the shadows or something more than what Cazador created them to be.

But either way, the consequences will be on their heads—because actions and choices have weight.

And you reap what you sow.

And here, I’ll take a small detour, because the first person to bring up the concept of redemption is actually Ulma, with her words: "But it would be a start—you could still be redeemed."

She later reinforces this idea in one of the most powerful scenes in the game, when—after the ritual and Astarion’s absolutely heart-wrenching explanation of why he took the decision away from them regarding their own children—she tells him: "I never thought a vampire spawn could find redemption… but yes, you will no longer be hunted."

Of course, Astarion is still a vampire. He still has instincts and needs. He likes hunting, killing, and yes, instilling fear. A little, as he puts it.

The difference is that instead of doing it indiscriminately, he directs his attention toward criminals, toward those who harm others. Just like the Emperor.

Even Karlach Mind Flayer redirects her hunger toward a specific category of people—ones who might even appreciate her intervention.

It’s called killing two birds with one stone.

And here I return to the technical side of storytelling—Astarion’s transformational arc is complete, and at this point, he falls into the archetype of the anti-hero: a protagonist in a story who may lack some of the traditional hero’s qualities, such as idealism, courage, and morality.

Typically, an antihero is a rebellious or tormented character with clearly negative traits who often employs questionable methods. However, they should not be mistaken for a villain, as they do not fully descend into evil or possess enough heroic qualities to earn the audience’s sympathy.

However, considering the general setting—where even heroes kill as if there’s no tomorrow and punish villains with brutality—just look at Selûne’s demigoddess daughter, Lady Aylin—I don’t see anything strange or horrific about feeding on criminals.

Quite the opposite.

To conclude, the concepts I’ve mentioned are not something I made up from scratch—they’ve existed for ages.

Astarion’s evil ending is clearly ascension, which, following the rules of good storytelling, still adheres to a transformational arc compared to Act 1 Astarion.

By extension, Act 1 Astarion is different from both the Ascendant Vampire and the Vampire Spawn in the final outcome. The monolithic character does not exist in any story worthy of being called one. And Baldur's Gate 3 is a masterpiece of writing.

Back to the issue of Astarion's charisma after doing his personal quest:

One thing that caught my attention is the double standards the inhabitants of Cazador's Mansion display. As soon as the party arrives there, we learn of the cultist pseudo-hierarchy that seemed to be at play. Spawns other than the chosen seven call Astarion Master. But also, there's Master-Master who is not named because it's obvious in the context, and because he elicits such dread. But as soon as Astarion speaks against Cazador, people call him blasphemous or weak or ignorant.

Then we need to get to the kennel master, and Astarion confronts him about the endured torture. The skeleton says some interesting things:

Then, you go into battle with Cazador. The game gives you an option to detach Astarion from the party, and then Cazador pouts that Astarion won't even see him, and the fight is a little easier because he can't drag Astarion into the ritual circle. But according to the "happy path" that is intended as default (as we always see Astarion half-naked just like the other six spawns in the cutscene after the battle), Astarion confronts Cazador, and Cazador berates him callously before assuming direct control.

Both Godey and Cazador infantilize Astarion, portraying him as a brat, "always difficult" and petulant. Cazador weaponizes the fact that he was turned as a very young person, denying Astarion the right to mature, whatever Cazador might consider maturation by vampire standards.

This paints a picture where Astarion was cheeky in his servitude after all, which might be considered bravely stupid, but it's still telling of a certain resilience on his part being constantly tested. He "sang sweetly" to his torturer because, apparently, he kept his voice. And something about Cazador trying to mock that pattern, Astarion being loud and chatty and driven to win people over, gets an abrupt reaction that makes me think Astarion has been baited and triggered in this exact way many times before. This trait was possibly the thing that set him apart from others and gave him his unique "purpose" as a spawn.

The narrative thus indicates that he has always been a hilariously annoying chatterbox, but being called out for it by Cazador seems to wound him deeper than other quips. So here, the narrative seems to win over game mechanics in terms of telling us how good Astarion is at influencing people.

So perhaps this is a remnant of the person Astarion was before the turning, part of the reason he was picked to become Cazador's victim. Perhaps that kind of coping through humor, sarcasm and people pleasing was the core of his youthful self-image, even.

(I think citing the alleged inevitable corruption of the character after being turned into a spawn would be counterproductive at this point, and it's more plausible to consider any corruption to be a result of living in an an abusive structure).

When searching Cazador's dungeon we find proof of his keen interest in Sarevok and in the contemporary politics of Baldur's Gate. In one of the writings, he expressed concern about Gortash's Steel Watchers harming his spawns. Allegedly, he was supposed to play a greater role in the interplay between the city's factions. A question arises then, why would he tell Astarion that he amounted to nothing? Is it another offense to Astarion dying before he could be considered accomplished by social standards, or is it something else?

Could Astarion really have already been entangled with Cazador in his career as a magistrate, after all?

(I need content where we can explore his lifetime so bad, even if it means breaking into an empty ruin and finding a portrait, a handkerchief, a sheet of cheesy poems, anything)

All excellent points. It's extremely impressive how well he's able to maintain a new relationship and care for someone else given all he has going on at the time, and its a testament to his heart, in my opinion.

I often see people push back against the idea that Astarion can be sweet and soft because of his harsher facets. He's allowed to be both. His bloodthirstiness does not erase his gentleness. His anger and bitterness do not negate his playfulness and caring. Nor is the inverse true; he's not a passive little kitten who has never done anything wrong. He's a complex person, but beyond that, he's just a person, period. People are never one thing.

All this is one of the reasons I love him so much; going through the hell he endured does not make someone kind. It's the sort of crushing conditions that can easily make people so bitter and toxic to the people around them. The fact that he maintained the light within himself through all those decades where Cazador tried to systematically crush every last good thing in him... that's a miracle. He's a miracle. Because despite having every reason not to, his life experience stacked against him, he still has so much kindness and softness inside. He still cares. I don't think he's exactly well-adjusted, even by the epilogue. I'm sure it will take him the rest of his life to heal, and he and his partner will have a lot to work through in their relationship. These things take work and effort, and though I'm sure Astarion would struggle with many parts of being in a relationship, he would put in the effort necessary to work on it. He's shown numerous times that he cares and is surprisingly proactive about the relationship. He's willing to self-examine and change, like OP said in regards to his behavioral checking and minding old habits. I'm sure he'd have plenty of bad days where he pushes his partner away and says hurtful things he doesn't mean when he's triggered or overwhelmed, but that doesn't mean he's not loving and willing to work on things. I also think his reaction to his partner becoming illithid is completely valid and realistic. The fact that he's so willing to even try to make it work honestly shows how he open and accepting he is, even in the face of you become one of the things your party has been fighting against and hating for the entire game. The man is going through a lot, and dealing with his love becoming a tentacled beast is just one more item in his list of things to process, and I'm sure it hurts. Let him have time to grieve and process. I've said this before, but Astarion is arguably the least judgmental of all the companions, which seems at odds with his nature. Until you realize it's just proof of how caring and empathetic he has the capacity to be, deep down, despite his best efforts to pretend otherwise. Anyway, it bothers me when people argue against portraying his softness and caring as being non-canon or unrealistic, just because he has a harsh, bloodthirsty, vengeful, self-serving side as well. Both are canon. Both are true. Both are equally important to his identity. He contains multitudes and that's exactly what makes him such a compelling character.

just thinking about astarion is SUCH a sweet partner? like this man was barely an adult elf when he was turned, and spent the next 200 years being abused by cazador, but like

- as the durge character, he'll be accepting and talk about your mental health and reassure you

- he'll insist on staying with your half illithid character, saying you shouldnt make his choices for him if you try to leave to protect him

- also just the dichotomy of him being explicitly vain and also explicitly not shallow is very sweet

- in that one lathanders light scene, he'll tell you he appreciates you trying to fix your mistake after you caused him IMMENSE pain

- he'll empathize with and support you if you swear your body to haarlep, noting how he's been through similar and is sorry you're going through it

- hes not jealous, his issues with sharing seem to largely come from if he thinks the other party would be okay with it (like he thinks lae'zel would spear him lol), and when someone like halsin comes along he'll happily consent

- on that note, he grows enough to be comfortable asking for support and reassurance instead of possessiveness/jealousy (not that these are the only options for that scenario, but astarions seen a lot of possessiveness in his life and its wonderful how much he avoids replicating it)

- he will always attack cazador in the final confrontation if cazador starts verbally abusing you instead of him

- he puts in the work to set boundaries that allow him to engage in an intimate (emotionally, physically, but not sexually) romantic relationship with tav and apologizes for "using" him before, when his behavior was SO understandable. and also he manipulated tav by having... consensual enjoyable sex lol. he might have ulterior motives but he never actually tries to use his sexual relationship with tav to manipulate him into doing anything

- you learn how astarion felt for Sebastian and how tender he was

- you learn about the first boy astarion couldnt bear to bring to cazador, the one he called soft and sweet (or something like that) and then was punished horribly for a straight year for it

- even when you turn to a half illithid, his main concern is you losing your agency

- if you are a full illithid, at the end of the game, some people complain about him not being ride or die, but i think he shows REMARKABLE willingness and support. what he cares about most is that you are still you, and how is he supposed to know for sure? i think asking him to stay with a type of being known for manipulation and mind control after everything he went through with cazador IS A HUGE FUCKING ASK. and he doesnt even write you off immediately? thats a lot of love right there

- if you arent illithid, he will double-check you want to plan a future with him still, and only once you affirm this will he express how badly he wants it. he's actively avoiding trying to manipulate you even

and probably more stuff im just not thinking of off the top of my head. obviously this is about the spawn route vs. ascended, but im just constantly amazed that despite EVERYTHING astarion has gone through, probably centuries without a healthy, loving relationship or even examples of that nearby, he still defaults to being kind, empathetic, and caring as soon as he gets the chance

like sure, he might be minorly evil and self-serving but personally i think thats the least he deserves

more importantly, the boys from astarions past give us a rare window into what he was like before turning into a vampire—he was gentle, empathetic lover. he was kind, he was protective. and as soon as he has the space to start looking for himself again, he goes RIGHT back to that behavior. he even self-checks for his "manipulation" and tries to correct for it

it just shatters my heart and then puts it back together hes such a wonderfully written character. astarion is allowed to be lovely AND furious and vengeful and maybe its just my raised-catholic ass, but its SO cathartic to see that a forgiveness arc is never pushed for his abuser

What is your take on Astarion's relationship with his siblings?

I have put unreasonable amounts of time into thinking about what the dynamics were like during Cazador's reign in that house. I mean, imagine sharing the same tasks, bedrooms, and general experiences of abuse and duress with the same people FOR TWO HUNDRED YEARS. That's absolute madness. If any of you have had experiences with co-living with family under stress for any extensive amount of time, you know very well the levels of emotional 4D chess-ing that tend to take place as a result. You end up distributing so much frustration and anger around and often onto the very same people you will ultimately seek comfort from - this is that situation but blown up to impossible proportions.

So, "strained" doesn't really do justice as a descriptor here. I believe the family had a dynamic, ever-evolving hierarchy within itself, years-worthy of time where the spawn shifted alliances and made "cliques" within themselves - rebels would evolve into pushovers and trusted friends would turn into snitches. You had endless amounts of drama within the group and flies on the walls would witness them cut each other's heads off one day and sob into one another's laps the next.

Naturally I think all of them were resistant to the concept of being a "family" at first, but it's pretty much impossible to not develop family-like ties throughout that long of a period. Following Cazador's death, I believe there would be further splintering within as some want to maintain said ties and others are eager to cut them - seeing both their siblings and the relationships themselves as yet another painful reminder of what Cazador imposed upon them.

I think Astarion falls into the latter category. If he had his way, he would never see, speak, or think of his brothers and sisters again. And while the sibling nomenclature is a deeply-rooted habit, he doesn't think it holds any legitimacy whatsoever (whether or not that's the case in his heart is another matter).

Dalyria (the moon-elf physician, whom I have come up with a story, personality, background and motivations during several long showers that might not necessarily line up with yours, so, if anything of what I'm about to say seems pulled out of a hat, it's because it was) is the opposite. She has grown attached to the constant presence of her siblings and taken a mother-goose role upon herself. With the Exception of Leonard and Violet (more on that later) she has decided they are her responsibility and wishes the group would stick together.

I like to think that there's a lot of history between those two in particular. Obviously, the interactions between Astarion and his siblings are very brief, but It's enough to run with. Dalyria shows a lot of concern and understanding towards him and even pleads when he threatens Petras' life - again, I think she did a lot of trying to pragmatically keep the peace among them and genuinely grew attached to a few - Astarion being the main one of said few. You even get the smallest hint of a on-and-off intimate relationship with the way he derisively calls her by her nickname.

Also, Astarion very occasionally showcases enough emotional maturity that I could see him latching onto the one other person around who seems to have her wits about her, but he's still flawed enough that Dalyria can think of him as a younger sibling that needs her care. Not to mention that, to me, she demonstrates a penchant for moral superiority and a dash of a machiavellian outlook, based on her diary and her completely unapologetic initiative to kill a child on the small chance it would lead her to a cure - not any child either, but Leonard's child. I can totally see Astarion sympathizing and gravitating towards someone like that.

Which brings us to the rest of the siblings - I would wager that, at least by the end of it all, Leonard and Violet were the odd-ones out. As it tends to happen within any tight-knit group, when one succeeds by stepping over the others (even if the reasons for it are justifiable) that brews a lot of resentment and eventual exclusion. Leonard not only did that, but he apparently still held onto hope of future and family outside the Szarr house; wheter or not everybody wanted out, I think a us-versus-them mentality is unavoidable under those circumstances, and Leonard was looked down upon by the others in their respective ways for what he was trying to do.

Violet just seems like she had gone a little cuckoo to me. We get very little about her, but when I think of an adult woman playing childish pranks on her roomates while you are all stuck in what's essentially a human trafficking ring... I think of a person who's either just a very silly breed of evil or who has lost touch with reality, and the latter is more interesting, imo. I think no one liked her, not only because she was a nuisance but also because she became completely emotionally untouchable. I think both Violet and Leonard are spawn who did not survive long after they were all freed.

I'll stop here before I ramble on for another 8 paragraphs about Aurelia, Yousen and Petras (Oh Petras, my beloved), but, yes, suffice to say that I believe it was kind of complicated LOL

EDIT: Not me calling Leon "Leonard" this whole post. Sorry buddy, you look like a Leonard.

Hello and welcome back to "I Take Things Too Seriously And Treat Fictional Characters Like They're Real People". On today's episode-

Post-game rambles

So I finally finished my first playthrough of BG3. Here are some of my brief, post-game-emotion-addled thoughts on it. (Alternate title: The existence of Astarion has forever altered my brain chemistry I will never be able to adequately express my feelings about him)

I had spent a year dying to get this game before I ever played it, because I had heard such good things, and honestly it surpassed my expectations in every way. I can tell this is one of those pieces of art that will remain firmly implanted in my heart probably forever. I could go on for days about everything I love about this game, but I think there are also some things I could never put into words if I tried.

In particular, Astarion and his storyline really just completely and profoundly captivated me in a way I don't know how to express. It's very rare that a character consumes my heart and mind this much, but his story and character is beyond beautiful and will always be incredibly special to me. Not to say I don't absolutely adore the other characters, because I do, but Astarion just stole both the show and my heart. I will never shut up about him. All the characters in this story feel so alive, and it's palpable just how much heart went into creating them, along with everything else in the world of this game.

It's been a while since a story's had me bawling my eyes out multiple times like this game had me, and it was so well-earned. I cared so much about this world and characters that everything just affected me so deeply. All the feelings are still raw and I'm a mess, so someday I think I'll be better able to put into words what this game meant to me, but right now I'm just dizzy with how amazing this experience was. I think I'll be losing my mind about it forever.

And I'm looking forward to playing it about 100,000 more times.