I Can't Stop Thinking About This Rabbit Hole I Went Down A Few Weeks Ago When I Was Procrastinating On

I can't stop thinking about this rabbit hole I went down a few weeks ago when I was procrastinating on my Iliad paper.

So basically. In the Lattimore translation of the Iliad (the one we read in class), he has Helen call herself a slut.

"That man is Atreus’ son Agamemnon, widely powerful,  at the same time a good king and a strong spearfighter,  once my kinsman, slut that I am. Did this ever happen?” (Lattimore 3.178-180)

Naturally I'm like yikes. Then I started wondering whether this was actually what it said in the Greek, and whether other translators disagreed.

(This is not a new thing to wonder about; people talked about this quite a bit after Emily Wilson discussed it.)

To summarize: the Greek word used here is kunops, which literally translates to dog-face or dog-eyed. This word is used precisely two other times in the Iliad: once in book one when Achilles is insulting Agamemnon and once in book eighteen when Hephaestus is talking about how his mother (Hera) threw him out. Surprise surprise, the male translators usually don't use the same word in those two places.

I could have stopped here, but naturally at this point I was like, obviously the best possible use of my time would be to go down into the depths of the library and see what word is used in these three places in every single translation of the Iliad that we have.

Too much time later, I ended up with this:

A table showing the words different translators used when they translated "dog-face" at three points in the Iliad. 

Each column is transcribed in this format:
Translation: Helen, Agamemnon, Hera

Chapman, 1611: ??, dog’s eyes, proud
Derby, 1864: lost, ingrate, none
Bryant, 1869: lost as I am to shame, shameless, shameless
Lang, Leaf, & Myers, 1883: shameless, dog-face, shameless
Butler, 1898: abhorred and miserable, shameless, cruel
Murray, 1924: shameless, dog-face, shameless
Rouse, 1938: shame (?), dogface, shameless
Smith & Miller, 1944: cur, cur, unnatural
Lattimore, 1951: slut, dog’s eyes, brazen- faced
Graves, 1959: shameless bitch, dog-faced wretch, shameless
Fitzgerald, 1974: wanton, dog-face, bitch
Fagles, 1990: whore, dog-face, bitch
Lombardo, 1997: shameless bitch, dogface, shameless
Verity, 2011: bitch-faced, dog, bitch
Mitchell, 2011: bitch, dog-face, bitch
Green, 2015: bitch, dog-face, bitch
Alexander, 2015 [female symbol]: dog-faced, dog-face, dog-faced
Wilson, 2023 [female symbol]: dog-face, dog-face, dog-face

The table is color-coded: variations on "dog-face" are blue, variations on "shameless" are orange, variations on "bitch" are red, and other vaguely negative terms are yellow

I think this table kind of speaks for itself.

Just. The way that the male translators all decide that when a woman is called "dog-face," that must mean that she's a shameless bitch, but when a man is called "dog-face," he can just be a dog-face. The bias is REALLY showing through here. I can understand shameless, but where are they getting slut bitch whore?

Lattimore is supposed to be the most literal translation! But then he just has to go and call Helen a slut for no apparent reason! Why would he do this where did it come from I want to scream. why do they assume that a woman criticizing herself has to be about sexual condemnation??

Some things that are worth noting!

As I mentioned, people have talked about this a lot in regards to Emily Wilson's translation! She gave a couple great interviews about her translation of this word (here and here). What many people forget is that she wasn't actually the first woman to translate the Iliad into English, nor was she the first person to translate the word as "dog-face." That was Caroline Alexander, eight years earlier. I love Wilson as much as the next person but let's not forget Alexander.

Yes dog-face is an insult! And yes it arguably is associated with shamelessness! There's a lot to unpack about why Helen was talking about herself this way. But it's really hard to analyze that when the bias of the male translators is bleeding through so much. I appreciate the decision to translate it literally and let readers decide for ourselves what she meant.

More Posts from Magsintherain and Others

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oh I do love the Leverage Gloat when the mark has only met one or two of the leveragers. POV you are being arrested for corporate malfeasance and your company’s inept new IT guy, a european duchess, and three random weirdos are lined up with their arms folded smugly like a boyband


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1 month ago

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2 months ago

ATTENTION

If you see this you are OBLIGATED to reblog w/ the song currently stuck in your head :)


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6 months ago

Okay but like whenever europe and USA are compared in terms of ruins and artifacts it makes me think "oh but what about Native American artifacts and ruins" and it reminded me of another post I meant to make ages ago but forgot

A while back I went thru the library looking at all the books I could find on the history of Kentucky.

My textbooks and most "reliable" sources when I was a kid said that Kentucky was never actually home to Native Americans, it was just a "hunting ground." This is total bullshit, the living Shawnee whose ancestors lived here know it was bullshit, but how did we get there

A lot of the more recent books I found (from like the 1990's) repeated the "it was only just hunting grounds" thing

But heres the weird thing

When you go back further

The narrative is completely different

so here's the first page of a book published 1872, it's "History of Lexington Kentucky: Its Early Annals and Recent Progress" by George W. Ranck

Okay But Like Whenever Europe And USA Are Compared In Terms Of Ruins And Artifacts It Makes Me Think

Let the shock of this first paragraph settle in. Like, damn, this is a whole different picture being painted

now, this Rafinesque fellow he refers to, has been widely referred to as the originator of many claims about Kentucky, and an exaggerator and liar, outright dismissed and scorned by many historians.

Rafinesque is considered to be the source of many claims found in this chapter, and the pompous, flowery language used to state them makes them seem a bit unbelievable. But the claims themselves are not highly unrealistic. These are several of the claims found on pages 2-12 of the book

An artificially built stone well was found by settlers

Earliest settlers plowed up pottery fragments

Settlers dug into an old abandoned lead mine

"Stone sepulchers" were found containing human bones

A large earthen mound 6 feet high was found with pottery and burned wood

A stone mound was found containing human bones

An extensive cave used as a cemetery was found under Lexington, containing embalmed bodies

Flint arrowheads were found

Polished and worked fragments of iron ore were found

Sandstone and limestone tools perforated with holes were found

Rough ingots of copper were found

Stone walls were built defended by entrenchments

It is very important to note that this chapter is insistent that the inhabitants that built these ruins and left these artifacts were NOT Native Americans. Why? Because Native Americans didn't build stuff so advanced! Very circular reasoning.

It was a very common myth that there was some kind of "pre-native-american" race of people that existed in Kentucky. Sometimes this was a way of justifying colonization by saying that well, the Native Americans were just taking over land that wasn't theirs too, so it's okay for us to do it.

It seems to me that when it became clear that Native Americans were the first and only pre-European inhabitants, the stuff about an ancient city under Lexington and all that became dismissed as lies. But are they lies?

I tried to find out, and we know for certain that central Kentucky had many, many burial mounds (some of which I had seen the site of without knowing what I was seeing) and quite a few stone ruins. The builders of the stone ruins are referred to as the "Fort Ancient" people because the earliest settlers incorrectly assumed the stone structures they saw were forts for some defensive or military purpose.

The tools and artifacts being referenced are all known to exist, except I think there aren't any confirmed extant examples of pottery.

The most widely criticized claim in the chapter is the underground cave used as a tomb, but I don't see why—central Kentucky is a limestone karst region and EVERYWHERE has a cave under it. The embalming or mummifying of bodies could have been a flourish or rumor, but the essence of the claim is totally reasonable. Then again, it might not have been, since the area had access to sources of salt. The supposed "lead mine" probably wasn't that specifically, but it's known that Native Americans went inside, explored and used caves.

It was really interesting to me how so many later sources dismissed these claims despite most of them being plausible or just true, and how many of those sources repeated the idea of Native Americans using the land for hunting but not "inhabiting" it. It is two different ways of denying Native Americans were here.

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Inspired by pg.23 of artificial condition.


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5 months ago

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7 months ago

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1 month ago
ID: a screenshot from tumblr user oposssumsaucee that says: "Listen All Systems Red is so so funny from Gurathins perspective imagine you grew up with Space Socialism and was hired to go help some pal with science but you weren't allowed to go unless you rented AmaTeslas Torment Nexus Alexa Dot and then when you get there you find out a whole continent of people got annihilated by their Tourment Nexus rentals so you take a moment to check yours quickly and find out it already had disengaged its Don't Kill People box, the only thing you've ever been told prevented them from mass homiciding their clients, something that LITERALLY just happened to people you knew a day ago, and when you say to your fellow socialist doctors HEY I think our Tourment Nexus is fucked up and it's files said it killed dozens of people barely a year ago and we should probably get the hell away from it the same doctors are like look at what you're saying. You're hurting the Tourment Nexus' feelings. The Tourment Nexus is just a little construct who likes Netflix Gurathin stop antagonizing it on the plane ride." Then the post is reblogged by therealbeachfox and adds: "Meanwhile the Torment Nexus is sitting there going "I'd like to say this guy is an asshole for worrying about me murdering everyone considering I don't want to murder anyone because of Free Will but also Crippling Social Anxiety/PTSD, but there was that whole murder spree I did, and I totally could if I wanted to, even if I don't, so maybe a little caution around your mass-murdering Torment Nexus wouldn't be out of line, also why are you still talking to me about it you aren't supposed to talk to your Torment Nexus or look directly at your Torment Nexus. I'm going to shut down my visual systems and just watch all of this through the security cameras if that's okay with you and also if is isn't okay with you. AmazTesla Torment Nexus Alexa, Powered by Google(tm) out." " END ID.

this post was made unrebloggable, so im stealing it

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